Dealer puts a wrong oil filter

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by dasb, Nov 26, 2020.

  1. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Yes. Advanced only like the HUD. I had it in my 2005 trim 6. I never programmed it. Already had a garage door opener transmitter that came with the house. And I particularly despised the automatically dimming" rear view mirror that never worked right and had no manual override.
     
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  2. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I think my wife's Pathfinder Hybrid has the dimming rearview mirror with Homelink. Likewise, I never programmed it. Our garage is still a mess, which is serving as converted barn/storage such that we have not parked a car in years. lol

    I don't even know how auto-dimming rearview mirror supposed to work. Is that how to prevent glare from headlights only for the night time drive?
     
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  3. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Yeah, it saves drivers from the mental puzzle of figuring out why their eyes hurt and then embarking on the excessively exhausting and technically challenging struggle of reaching up to the mirror and flipping that little lever. Except that with the two we have had, the dimming was minuscule, our eyes still hurt, and all we could do was turn the mirror away rendering it useless at night.
     
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  4. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Aha, two things preventing us to see the auto-dimming function in real-time. 1. I rarely do night time drive, my wife almost never. 2. Even when I do rare night time driving, I almost never have anyone following me that close with the headlight on our rural roads. LOL
     
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  5. OptimalPrime

    OptimalPrime Member

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    Yes, if I'm recalling it correctly. So, instead of buying the Advanced instead of Plus, I bought a little programmable fob garage door remote for $25 on Amazon.
     
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  6. OptimalPrime

    OptimalPrime Member

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    I still have my 2005 trim 6, silver with gray leather, and I did program the garage door opener in its mirror once upon a time. It was nicer than carrying a remote, well worth a few minutes spent synching it to the garage doors, but not thousands of dollars nicer when it came time to choose which Prime to get.

    What's funny is that I never noticed anything bad about the rear view mirror in the 05, except that one of the garage door buttons had its lettering pretty much worn off due to heavy use when I bought it. When I manually flip the mirror in the Prime Plus to night mode, then high beams in the driver's side mirror bother me due to being "unbalanced". When I flip it back to where I'm being blinded from 2 places rather than one, my eyes/brain mind it a lot less, due to it seeming "balanced". I guess I was just born lucky, able to survive any type of rear view mirror!

    Wearing headphones and getting sound in only one ear also drives me nutzo.
     
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  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Whenever I've been especially bad, I seem to get punished by somebody following behind me at just the exact distance where their lights are reflecting straight into my eyes, but not falling on the sensor at the bottom of the mirror frame, because the shadow of my spoiler across the back window falls exactly there.

    Some have posted about solving that problem by spinning the mirror so the sensor's in the top edge, but I haven't tried it.
     
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  8. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Guys, I've done at least 50 oil changes by tightening the spin-on oil filter by hand. I've never had an issue once. Even when you tighten by hand, a spin-on oil filter will be too tight to break the seal when you remove it by a wrench. Yes, I always apply fresh engine oil to the seal.

    Regarding 3/4 (270°) or whatever turns, it is an approximate value. I've never had an issue reaching it within 5°. When tightening by hand, sometimes you will overshoot and sometimes undershoot by about 5°, but it will always be sealed properly and will never come loose. You're guaranteed to make it to tight if you use a torque wrench, and the amount of torque you will have to apply during the removal will be several times than during the installation—if the filter comes loose at all.

    If you still don't believe me, read 4(a)(4) under the official oil-change instructions from Toyota I posted:

    Official 2020 Toyota Prius Prime oil-change instructions | PriusChat

    It gives the option of tightening the oil filter by hand, in addition to the torque option and a common-wrench option. If you are doing a DIY, by-hand option is the preferred option. The reason why they give the torque option as the preferred option is to eliminate operator error. It's much less likely that an operator will forget to tighten an oil filter or overtighten it if a torque wrench is used. Hand-tightening is better if done by care.

    For cartridge-type filters, I used a torque wrench. They were always too tight to remove, despite following the factory torque spec.
     
  9. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    I owned a 2020 Prius Prime XLE Classic Silver Metallic and currently own a 2021 Prius Prime Limited Blue Magnetism.

    The Classic Silver Metallic is the most boring color option in all colors. You don't get much respect when you drive the car—people are more likely to tailgate you or honk at you because you're driving that common Prius that everyone has.

    You will only appreciate what a great color the Blue Magnetism is if you own it. That's the opinion of everyone on this forum who got to have this color—sometimes unwillingly at first. First of all it is a wonderful shade, period. Secondly you get a lot more respect when you're on the road. No one has tailgated me or honked at me yet. People see it as an a lot more substantial and fancy car than the boring silver one. Surely you will never lose it even in the largest parking lot. I can't be any happier with this color and it's the best color of a car I have ever driven.

    I hated the XLE trim. I love the Limited trim.

    The blind-spot monitor (BSW) is a must around here. The funny thing is that the BSW not only helps you but also the people around you. My experience is that when people try to pass you at night, they slow down or even pull back as soon as they notice the orange light flashing on your mirror. So, this feature not only alerts the driver but also the drivers in your blind spot. The flashing orange light probably won't be noticeable to them during the day but they can see it at night.

    The HUD is great.

    The homelink mirror is great. I hated carrying two remote fobs (for gate and door) in my car and trying to reach for them. I like the image on the homelink mirror better than on the manual mirror, but I should admit that sometimes it doesn't dim it as much as the manual one does.

    The proximity/parking alert sensors and rear cross-traffic alert sensors are great.

    The fog lights are great.

    The JBL audio is a nice touch.

    You can't complain about the rain-sensing variable intermittent windshield wipers.

    The TSS 2.0 on the 2021 models is great.

    I like the Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S tires on the 2021 better than the Toyo NanoEnergy A41 tires on the 2020.

    This is the best car I have ever owned and can't express how much I like it.
     
    #49 Gokhan, Dec 27, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  10. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Are they; they’re effective? Third gens are pretty much just ornamental. I’m not trying to bait you by the way, just interested.
     
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  11. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    When I was living near the Bay Area (San Francisco vicinity), fog lights were a must, as there wasn't a morning without a dense fog. In Southern California we hardly ever have a dense fog.

    So, I will probably almost never get to use them. I keep them off. As an answer to your question, in my case they are mostly ornamental. LOL
     
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  12. OptimalPrime

    OptimalPrime Member

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    This only proves that you have absolutely zero idea of what a torque wrench is, or how to use it.
    People who use a torque wrench are the least likely people in the world to over/under tighten something.

    You can put your filter on however you want to. I really don't care what you do.
    Tightening an oil filter is not something which demands high precision in order to work OK.

    But still.....for putting on an oil filter:

    The most technically correct, and the most accurate method by far, is turning it to the rotation angle specified by the filter manufacturer.
    End of story. You can believe me or not believe me, but it's a fact.

    If the spec is 3/4 turn, and you are off by 5 degrees, I would say you have met the spec very well.
    Turning it 1/2 turn or 1 turn would normally not cause a big problem, either. There is wide margin for error.
    That is why hand tightening it without even looking at rotation angle normally works for people of normal strength and good judgment.
    Turning it 1/4 turn or 1-1/4 turns would be asking for trouble,
    That is why occasionally people get leaks, or can't get their filter off.
    Turning it 0 turns from when it makes contact will cause a disaster.
    Turning it 1-1/2 turns or more will almost guarantee that you'll have trouble removing it, it might damage the gasket, and it might make it so tight that no wrench will remove it at the next oil change without literally tearing the sheet metal can apart and leaving the threaded disc and gasket still attached to the car. It will then require hammering/chiseling or wrenching on the threaded disc directly after the can is gone. I've done that after a dealer put a filter on way too tight and the can tore apart as I was removing it.

    If a torque is specified as an alternative method, then using a torque wrench is the most accurate method of achieving exactly that torque.
    Your hands are not an accurate torque wrench.
    The range of torques and angles reached by 1000 people hand tightening is much wider than the range of 1 person.
    Even for people with identical hands/strength, they can have very different ideas of how tight "hand tight" is.
    If you own hands and brain come up with a solution which happens to work well for installing filters, then congratulations.
    So do mine, but I still stop tightening based upon angle, not feel.

    Some people have difficulty with accepting that their way of doing things is good enough, but not actually the best way.
    You think that is me, I think that is you. There are many fields where I don't know up from down, but mechanical engineering is not one of those. I've had a mechanical engineering degree for 40 years, and I take pride in doing mechanical tasks exactly the way that engineers like myself figured out they are best done. You don't need to do it that way if you don't want to, but stop making stuff up, like saying that using a torque wrench guarantees that someone will overtighten it. That's totally wrong. A torque wrench is your friend, if trying to meet a torque specification.
     
  13. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    I have installed spin-on oil filters all sorts of ways: torque wrench, precise turns, hand-tightening, regular wrench, etc.

    I do have a torque wrench and I use it for almost everything except for a spin-on oil filter.

    The problem with the "3/4 turns" spec is that it's not a precise spec. Problem 1: The torque can change by a factor of two or more between, say, 2.95/4 turns and 2.98/4 turns. Problem 2: It's impossible to count the exact turns. Do you really think that 3/4 equals 0.7500? No, it doesn't. It's an approximate value and it can vary between 0.7 and 0.8 if not more easily. Anyone who knows about the stress–strain relationship of rubber would know that the stress starts increasing exponentially after a certain strain and you can easily break a part if you insist on adding an additional 0.01/4 turns once you reach a certain point.

    Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant by hand-tightening. I mean this:
    1. Very lightly tighten the filter until the gasket (with fresh engine oil applied) barely contacts the flange.
    2. At that point look at some mark on the filter to prepare to count the number of turns (3/4 or whatever specced for the filter).
    3. Use a shop towel or glove and hand-tighten the filter as hard as you can (without hurting your hand, wrist, or fingers).
    4. Verify that the final number of turns is to the spec within about 5%. If it's quite off (very unlikely), you may want to use a wrench, but do not overtighten—apply a gentle force only (typically less than the factory spec). If you have hand/wrist/finger injuries, you may want to use a wrench. You needn't apply force to the point that you may hurt yourself. I don't think anyone installed a filter by hand with a moderate force for an average person and had a leak. These gaskets seal more over time instead of leaking.
    Any experienced mechanic tightens spin-on oil filters by hand. No, you don't need to torque them with a wrench—all it will do is that it will be hard to remove. No, it won't leak. No, it won't come loose. Yes, it works—I have done it at least fifty times.

    I'm not alone here. Google any respectable site and they will tell you not to use a wrench but hand-tighten only when you install a spin-on oil filter. For example from Popular Mechanics:

    "Some filters have a rubberized surface to make it easy to turn. Every reputable oil filter is designed to seal for tens of thousands of miles with no more than a good hand-tightening. You don't need a wrench unless you have one of those deeply recessed filters with no space around it for your hands."

    How to Change Your Oil And Filter

    As I pointed out, even the official instructions in the Toyota OEM repair manual, which I personally posted on PriusChat for everyone to follow, OK hand-tightening only. Now, when you have someone who pays for and spends a day to download the OEM repair manual, you know that you're talking to someone who does everything by the book! In this case the best alternative among different instructions given in the book is hand-tightening, as long as you are careful and know what you're doing. No one—including yourself—who changes your oil will curse at you when they remove the oil filter if you installed it by hand, but it may happen if you use a wrench or even a torque wrench with the precise factory spec.

    I hope we don't start talking about keeping a torque wrench handy in our kitchens to close our jar lids. ;)
     
    #53 Gokhan, Dec 28, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  14. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    The word "hand" appears twice in the attached Repair Manual excerpt, neither instance relevant to tightening the oil filter.

    With the (3rd gen) reusable housing I used spec'd torque of 18 foot/pounds: NEVER any problems with subsequent removal.

    upload_2020-12-28_9-19-26.png

    And since converting to spin-on, either the 13 foot/pound or 3/4 turn method achieves virtually the same amount of rotation.

    This is getting really tiresome man.
     
    #54 Mendel Leisk, Dec 28, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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  15. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Fourth gen Repair Manual Instruction attached. With the spin-on, they say either 13 foot pounds, or 3/4 turn, and do the latter if torque wrench won't fit. Never just hand tighten as best you can. I don't think I could turn it 3/4 turn by hand, probably half turn at most.

    upload_2020-12-28_9-25-27.png

    This is a classic OP's topic completely forgotten, head-butting session, lol.
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    No, the Prius Prime OEM repair manual says, "If not enough space is available to use a torque wrench, tighten the oil filter sub-assembly 3/4 of a turn by hand or use a common wrench."

    Yes, you can easily turn it 3/4 turns by hand. Once you're at around 3/4 turns, the torque will start increasing exponentially. That's why it's so much easier to remove it if you tighten it by hand instead of with a wrench.

    However, I always use a torque wrench when I install spark plugs. It's very important not to have any oil or antiseize compound on the threads, gasket, or flange and clean them with a solvent to ensure that; otherwise, it will be extremely overtorqued when you use the factory spec on the torque wrench, as the oil reduces the friction substantially, changing the correct torque setting by a huge factor, and you will quite possibly damage the spark plug threads.
     
    #56 Gokhan, Dec 28, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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