Dealer wants $4500 for brake repair.... WHAT?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by HeinzCatSoup, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    I gave the link already. The OP is hesitant to do it. I don't understand why.
     
  2. BZzap!

    BZzap! Senior Member

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    He wouldn't hesitate if it resulted in an accident,that's for sure. Sorry about the repeat on the NHSTB link. More is better sometimes. :)
     
  3. Dark_matter_doesn't

    Dark_matter_doesn't Prius Tinkerer

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    I agree with you, having worked on brakes on a variety of cars over the past 30 years, but the Prius master cylinder is not the same as other cars. It apparently integrates the ABS and regenerative braking command functions along with the normal hydraulic brake function, plus a power brake assist function not relying upon vacuum as in most cars. If you had to replace all those components simultaneously, the bill would probably run into the thousands of dollars on a lot of cars.

    Toyota tried to cram too much into a single unit and didn't engineer it for a multi-hundred-thousand mile lifetime. One would think that after selling these cars for ten years, the brake master cylinder design would be absolutely bulletproof.

    The Prius brake master cylinder replacement and the subsequent brake bleeding require a laptop with Toyota software to complete plus Toyota service instructions. It isn't something that a backyard mechanic (lacking these resources) should attempt as far as I know.
     
  4. Bruce Cameron

    Bruce Cameron Junior Member

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    That is what they would have you believe. The master cylinder is essentially no different than any other car, just cups in a cylinder. It is simply immposible for ALL the components to need replacing at the same time. They either don't know what their doing or are scammers.. As for bleeding the system, yes he can do it, nothing special there either. I've done it dozens of times. No TECHII requirement to carry out a system bleed. In fact it would surprise you what can be done without the big T on these cars. Everyone runs for cover when these play up, they aren't that scary. In a stationary state, the regen is cancelled out and the usual brake system employed to hold the car, so to put it in park, foot on brake will allow the master cyl to pressurise and you can bleed it. My attitude is really, what does he have to lose? The bill isn't going to get any worse now is it! I have seen these types of issues rectified by flushing before, all it takes is gunk under a check valve or similar to throw a code and cause system malfunction. I would certainly try it before handing over that sort of cash.
     
  5. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    Let me ask you, have you seen that part in the first place? Have you bleed brakes in a Prius.
     
  6. Bruce Cameron

    Bruce Cameron Junior Member

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    Yes. I am 8n fact a qualified mechanic and toyota factory trained on prius. So yes I do know a thing or two. Ppl over complicate things. A little knowledge can be dangerous. It has a master cyl just like any other car you care to mention. The control unit is essentially the same as many other cars. It is controlled by very complex software but mechanically they are not that complex at all. Let me guess, you're not a qualified tech?
     
  7. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    As much as I would like to believe you, does it look like a typical master cylinder?

    [​IMG]

    from: The $3000 Brake Job | PriusChat
     
  8. Bruce Cameron

    Bruce Cameron Junior Member

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    No but the principal of operation remains the same. Wether or not you believe me is of no concern. My cars fine and I kow how to fix it, I'm good. If you just have to be right, then good for you. Petty ppl....they never cease to amaze me.

    So, back to my original point. Is this not a "master cylinder"? Can the sytem not be bled like any other? You asked me if I was the real deal and I answered, now it's your turn. Have you actually ever, done anything more than troll car sites and collect magazines, like many ppl here? If they do not have a master cylinder, then what is connected to the pedal?

    Your turn.....friendly_jacek
     
  9. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    I don't appreciate your insults, Bruce.

    I simply disagreed with your statement:

    The member Dark_matter_doesn't clearly showed that 2010+ Prius master cylinder is not a stand alone part and it's combined with a lot of other brake hardware.

    If you don't understand that and claim to be actually working in a dealership and fixing Prius, that makes one wonder a lot.
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i thought you needed techstream to bleed?
     
  11. The Critic

    The Critic Resident Critic

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    Bruce is correct. There is a method for manual bleeding that is outlined in the service manual.

    However, if you screw up and set some faults, it may be difficult to recover without techstream.
     
  12. GSW

    GSW PRIUS POWER

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    Anyone take their 2010 in for the recall service? Any out of pocket costs? Thanks.
     
  13. Bruce Cameron

    Bruce Cameron Junior Member

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    Please don't take it all so literally. My point is simply this. It has a master cylinder, yes it's unique in some respects and appears somewhat complicated I agree. It can however be bled like any other system. It may throw codes if done manually, but he could disconnect the batt to overcome that. I simply hate to see poor folks get stung, it eats me, always has. I have had many clashes with dodgy, cheating service advisers and managers when I've attempted to help customers with honesty and integrity. If I can help this fellow to solve this problem then win, win. Nothing more than that. I've seen disgusting things done to ppl in dealerships, talked out of perfecdtly good cars only to see them on the lot a week later...I am legitimatley what I say I am...a qualified tech in my own business. Yes I was trained at Toyota headquaters in Australia on the Gen 1-2 Prius. The master cyl in question is an intergrated design, but despite regen and modulation it shares many design features with simpler or seperate component designs. I simply want to encourage the owner to question the sealership and force them to justify the quote. I also would like to see them pinpoint exactly what it is the say has failed, for clarities sake. I suspect he is being taken advantage of and I don't like it. Does that clear it up?
     
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  14. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    Yep. No hard feelings. Thanks for helping.
     
  15. HeinzCatSoup

    HeinzCatSoup Junior Member

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    thank you everyone. I'm still trying to contact as many people as I can and will update you for the responses I get. If anyone can get me more contacts, I will talk to anyone and everyone that wants to listen to my story, because I want to make everyone aware how ridiculous this is. However of course I can't sit around and just wait for a response and I don't want to take it into Toyota for a $4k+ repair with uncertainty of getting reimbursed.

    Its true that I am the second owner of the car, and that the original owner could have abused the car (which is what the service manager believes the damage to be "wear and tear"). If the car was abused by the original owner, it sure doesn't show it on paper or in person: When I purchased the car from Toyota of Ventura, the car was in flawless condition inside and out. The original owner purchased some extended care service from toyota and when I check mytoyota website, I can see that the car was meticulously brought in for services every 5000 miles to the dealer, and sometimes even inbetween every 5000 miles, I saw dealer logs such as "tire rotation, oil check, etc" basically everything was done by Toyota of Venture. When I acquired the car, I continued to baby the car. Everytime I used the brakes, I turned it into a game to get as high of an MPG as I can. This means I was always braking gently from far away to make sure the friction brakes dont get used unless I absolutely had to.

    So whats going on right now with my car? I've purchased a used Master Brake Cylinder & Brake Booster Assembly off eBay for $400. I considered installing it myself, but since i'm not 100% sure, I decided i'm going to bring it to a mechanic to install it for me and hopefully atleast get the car up and running since i've been driving a rental car out of my own pocket.
     
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  16. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    I know it's disappointing to hear that very expensive things can brake in prius, even if rarely. The good news is one can buy these things cheaply if used and DIY to avoid being ripped off by a dealer. I have been doing this with my own cars for many years now. The many things I replaced in my lowly corolla for a couple of hundreds would have cost me many thousands of dollars if I didn't buy used parts and DIY.

    The part in this story that upsets me the most is the safety issue. Brakes should be engineered in a way that loss of braking should not happen, period. Sounds like bad engineering to me.
     
  17. Bruce Cameron

    Bruce Cameron Junior Member

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    Hey Hienz,

    I wish I could do more to help. I am alarmed at the assertion that it is a result of driver abuse. I promise you these guys are talking absolute sh#t. There is nothing...NOTHING, a driver can do to "abuse" the braking system and cause premature failure of the unit in question. It sounds like it has been well maintained. Does that sound like the sort of owner that trashes the car? Do yourself a favour, take it elswhere, these guys sound like bad news. Even if the po did drive the thing like a maniac, it would just require pads and rotors a litlle earlier than usual, nothing more. I still have mates in the Toyota franchise network here, I'll see if I can investigate re recalls etc. you may have an avenue of recourse. You could still try and have an independent mech bleed the system, it will likely throw a code, but disconnect the 12v battery for a minute or two to clear it. If one of the check valves is gummed up and bleeding off pressure or similar, it may flush it out. It is highly unusual that such a young car should suffer such an issue though. Brake fluid attracts moisture form the atmosphere, and it then reaches a point where it can become corrosive and cause problems. I doubt this gen3 is old enough for this to have occured though. I think Patrick Wong recommended another dealer in your area. That could be worth a shot...the dealer you're currently dealing with smells bad to me, having seen behind the scenes and their tricks. They love to baffle ppl with jargon and then rip them off.

    In addition, I have had a mserious issue with a new car I bought some years ago. The dealer was bad news. I contacted the state service manager, the guy that oversaw the dealer network for the entire eastern Australian dealer area. After some discussion he got action. I had a new engine fitted to my car within 3 days, nil cost to me. I had previously spent weeks fighting with the dealer with no results and they tried to charge me labour for diagnostics which ofcourse is in breach of tghe warranty conditions. I only share this as an example of what goes on in my industry and how ppl get taken for a ride when they don't kniow their rights.
     
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  18. HeinzCatSoup

    HeinzCatSoup Junior Member

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  19. HeinzCatSoup

    HeinzCatSoup Junior Member

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    A (final) update regarding my car:

    The bad news is.. no help from Toyota. They never got back to me after the 3rd time calling, the dealer is no help either, and I just couldn't wait any longer to get my car fixed and did not want to fix my car there and hope to get a refund/rebate.

    the good news is that the salvaged Master Brake Assembly/Brake Booster I purchased off eBay worked. After replacing the parts, the ABS light continued to stay on. My father did some research online and found that if you short a few pins on the ECU to force the car into diagnostic mode, then step on the brake 8x in 5 seconds, it would reset the brake ECU. presto change'o ABS / Brake light all disappeared and the car was back to normal.

    The first test drive on the freeway was the scary one, because if the brakes lock up again, things could easily go from bad to catastrophic in a second. Today is day 2 I'm driving the car, everything looks good.. so I suppose this story ended well for me and my wallet, no thanks to Toyota.

    PS. anyone want to buy a newly "refurbished" 2010 Prius? (LOL)
     
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  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    congrats! what was the final damage?
     
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