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Dealing with FUD

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by godzillaismad, Apr 10, 2013.

  1. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Exactly that. When they're complaining about the cost of petrol, just grin a knowing smile :)
     
  2. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    The internet and talk shows have brought home we often don't respond to logic, but FUD and other emotion bait. :(

    Quite a bit of it happens right here on PC.

    Below is a video spinning how a Prius in environmentally unsustainable while giving a blind eye:
    • That's what happens to the building of non-hybrid cars (global subcontracting)
    • That's what happens to the building of an iPhone and thousands of other products.
    Add to that the lies about Sudbury and battery disposal.

     
  3. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Oooh look it's from the BBC, the same BBC who gets massive amounts of advertising income from the oil companies. The same BBC who have been running a regular column on their website about how poor EV's etc etc (and always using pictures of the G-Wiz and other nonsense EV's rather than the Leaf or Tesla). Oh, the same BBC where the Sultan of Brunei entertains certain reporters and presenters. Complete coincidence apparently.
     
  4. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    ^ a portion of the Top Gear "review" of the Prius

    The BBC has blocked the entire review on YouTube - I would not be proud of such childishness either.

     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I would recommend a two-part, approach:
    1. Take one out for lunch and on the return, ask them to drive the car.
    2. Get some small toy or camera with NiMH batteries . . . and ask them to tell you about those batteries.
    But I have to ask, do you value them as co-workers, folks you rely upon, or are you in competition for their positions? The reason I ask is some discussions aren't worth the time involved. In those cases, consider "vanity" plates like "C52MPG". Possibly a casual shirt with the mileage in big letters on the back.

    It really comes down to what good do you get from helping them to 'see the light?'

    Bob Wilson
     
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  6. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    I had always regarded their World Service as one of the least biased of news services. At least not as partisan as Fox News or Huffington Post.

    I generally leave the radio on low at night with them turned in on my local PBS station.

    Can't resist but to suggest a YouTube of my own: Who Hurts the Environment More? Toyota or BP?
     
  7. godzillaismad

    godzillaismad Member

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    One of them happens to be my direct manager, but that's of a little relevance as I could not stand the ongoing, mindless bashing. It seems quite funny that they praised diesel cars so much but none of them drive one, with the exception of the Vdub driver. This very driver keeps bragging about the torque in his Tiguan and claimed that his modded engine could do 0-100kmh in 5 seconds (or so he thinks!). Saving fuels probably aren't in their radar (managers = big $$$).
    The Dodge driver is probably the most sensible out of the lot, so I will work on him a little more.

    They still can't get pass the arguement of the pollution for producing the battery and disposal. Unless I have strong data for rebuttal I guess I won't win anyone over this at the moment.

    But I like the idea of a test drive, might try that out one day.
     
  8. godzillaismad

    godzillaismad Member

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    What a coincidence that they conveniently replaced the Hummer with a Land Rover? Must be a pommie thing. Now that makes a strong link between what BBC spewed out and the mindless bashing from my pommie friends!
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Do you really care what they think or are you asking for yourself?

    If for yourself: Mr. Green's Web-Only Mailbag - November/December 2007 - Sierra Magazine - Sierra Club

    Also, be sure and ask them "What is the well-to-tank record for gasoline?" . . .
    http://www.energy.ca.gov/2007publications/CEC-600-2007-002/CEC-600-2007-002-D.PDF

    Be sure and cite common oil disasters in your region (notice I didn't use the USA ones.) Ask them 'where is the nickel pollution?'

    Then say,'Well at least it isn't like <a different oil disaster>. I'm glad to hear you are so concerned about someone else's nickel pollution . . . I'm not.'

    Many hybrid skeptics believe we are environmental, bambi-lovin', green-headed, do-gooders. My personal preference is to make sure they understand:

    'The only color I care about are the currency in my wallet. If I could take off something that poisons your air to gain an extra km/l, you'd better put on a gas mask. So excuse me, I have an appointment at the range . . . with my sniper scope rifle and 30 rounds of ammunition . . . and some <their favorite politician> photos.' Do not crack a smile . . . until you are out of earshot.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  10. kenmce

    kenmce High Voltage Member

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    Your friends are running about ten years behind on their disinformation. All that silliness has been debunked here ad nauseum. Just search the Gen. I forums. That stuff used to get coverage back when we were all driving the Gen. I's.
     
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  11. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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  12. godzillaismad

    godzillaismad Member

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    Sounds about right. It never ceased to amaze me that some people could still live in the past with infactual videos/articles. However, it's a little unfair to just single out UK as I have some UK colleagues that actually liked the Prius and its concept, but they are not prepared to engage (and support my argument) in this debate as they simply do not know enough of the technology and the philosophy behind the HSD.

    In Australia, well at least in my circle of "friends/colleagues", you will be laughed at if you dare to change from a "powerful-gas-hog" ego extender to a Prius. Don't expect that to change anytime soon.
     
  13. kenmce

    kenmce High Voltage Member

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    The Prius is designed for a particular niche - people who have adult responsibilities and want to deal with them quietly and effectively. Don't know about Oz, but in the US that is considered a specialty market. People who have other needs can buy other cars, I really wouldn't want it any different.

    Yes. Also, something that is really just a fine piece of automotive engineering has been dragged into a variety of social arguments. People beat on it as a substitute for who or whatever it is that they disagree with. Fortunately the car doesn't care.
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    In 2001, we needed a 'going for groceries' car for my wife. We looked at the 1.5L Echo and 1.5L Prius and at the time, because it was going to be a town car, went with the Echo. Bought for $14,250, we sold it 9 years later for $3,000 with 30,000 miles.

    In 2005, we lost a 91 Camry with 180,000 miles in an accident, $1,100 insurance payment. I bought a used 2003 Prius, $17,500 with 49,000 miles. We still have that car, 155,000 miles with an average 52 MPG. A used car, I bought the maintenance manuals at the same time and learned how the systems work. It became my hobby and technical puzzle.

    So in 2009, we had an offer for the new (then) 1.8L Prius. It is now at 38,000 miles and has nicely filled the role of the Camry and the 2003 Prius is our commuting car. Each has overlapping roles but the 1.8L handles highway and cross country tasks. The 1.5L is my commuting car and avoids miles on the 2010 Prius . . . preserving the remaining warranties.

    Buying any new technology is risky but you have options:
    • late model 2007-09 1.5L Prius - a fine car, the bugs have been pretty well worked out. With over 600,000 of those models sold, they are affordable and offer excellent value. Best of all, there are large numbers in salvage yards helping to keep parts affordable and a reasonable chance of finding a qualified mechanic. Of course I would always recommend self-maintenance which for an older car, makes a lot of sense.
    • early model 2010 1.8L Prius - a step-up in technology and capabilities, it provides everything the 1.5L Prius does but at higher speeds and with more payload. Used ones are pricier but often come with remaining warranty. This means self-maintenance is possible but not wise if a warranty remains.
    • new 1.8L/1.5L Prius - there are options of choosing a vehicle that matches your driving profile. The 1.5L is a very efficient, commuting car. The 1.8L Prius v is a wagon with a lot of space but poorer mileage. The 1.8L Prius continues the original mission, overlapping both the commuter and wagon.
    If you feel technically confident and frugal, I would go with the 1.5L Prius. Purchase prices should be reasonable and the last model year, 2009, will have all of the manufacturer enhancements. Manuals, OBD scanners, and parts are reasonable and there is a considerable body of knowledge.

    For the less technically confident and frugal, a used 1.8L Prius is a good value. The major systems will still be under warranty. Don't worry about the engine because the hybrid 'de-rates' the engine to make it more efficient. The transmission and traction battery are the biggies that are saving the engine wear. You'll have a full-size car with a lot of capabilities and outstanding mileage. A lot of the early depreciation will be over and the car will gracefully age.

    A used Prius is a good, affordable way, to get 'hands on' with the technology. If it doesn't work out, get something else and at least you'll have the experience. But a used Prius is also a gateway to hybrid technology.

    We don't know what the next Prius will bring. Perhaps changes in the battery and EV modes; perhaps improved control laws, or; perhaps improved safety features. But who wants a real-life, "Waiting for Godot?"

    GOOD LUCK!
    Bob Wilson
     
  15. godzillaismad

    godzillaismad Member

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    I hear ya Bob, that's why I drive a Prius because I need a car that's reliable, get me from point A to B efficiently!

    I have just got back from a mini break in Cairns, so many of Prii taxi, at a rate of 8 out of 10 taxi are hybrids, the within the 8, 6 of them are GenII and some GenIII. Cairns Taxi must love them to run their fleet mostly on hybrids!
     

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  16. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    This is a fairly good video in defence of the Prius



    While my car is a 2000 Honda Insight, the arguments for it are very similar to Prius drivers.
    • I bought it before environmentalists embraced hybrids and talk show hosts dissed it for having that association
    • Saving money long-term was my primary motivation. With 65.3 lifetime mpg going back to a gallon of gas costing $1.25, it definitely has paid back additional costs and then some. In fact, I'll restore and modify it while making my 2nd car a hybrid or EV.
    • Nearly every tech product is sourced from multiple continents, so stop pretending it applies only to the Prius.
    Like many other flamewars, its less about facts, and more about feelings and hating. The people resorting to hating and playing with feelings if they can be honest know they don't have a good case.
     
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  17. godzillaismad

    godzillaismad Member

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    Interesting video for 2004... most points raised are still very valid today... now with the c, the "hybrid premium" has significantly reduced.

    Just a slight update to my situation. The Vdub driver has gone very very quiet lately because he is getting his Golf DSG looked up after VW Australia finally announced a recall in Australia, disgraceful really. This VDub lover previously claimed that all his Golfs were "bulletproof"... He now has to hassle the dealer to get the DSG checked.

    The pommy lady moved to another city for another position.

    The only vocal doubter is the pommy guy, whom I fought off the claim of exorbitant nickel used for the hybrid battery as follows:
    1. Each HV battery has 32lb of nickel in them
    2. Assuming Toyota makes 1 million of these suckers per year, so 32lb x 1,000,000 = 32,000,000lb = 14,515 tonnes
    3. According to the International Nickel Study Group, 1.5 million tonnes of nickels produced in 2011, so divide the nickels used for HV by the total produced gives you less than 1% (
    :: International Nickel Study Group ::
    - I actually asked him how much he reckon it would used before I gave out my answer, to which he referred to the BBC report and said it must be 60%!)

    I further provoked him by saying that the chrome bars used in his Dodge whatever probably has more nickel used (thanks to someone above). He just went berserk afterwards... didn't think he expected that response at all. So not all bad after all ;);)
     
  18. PriQ

    PriQ CT+iQ

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    Even worse for the DSG transmission now: Volkswagen is not entirely sure what is wrong. Some times you can fix it by updating the ECU, but sometimes you have to replace quite expensive parts. Some people have to live with shaking transmissions, other with having to replace clutches every 6000 miles.

    I'm glad I have a bullet proof planetary gear instead.
     
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  19. godzillaismad

    godzillaismad Member

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    +1

    Back when the FUD started, this VW driver kept telling others how complex and a piece of c*** the Prius is compared to his fancy VW Tiguan/Golfs. But since VW finally ran out of excuses to deny a recall in Australia in June last month, he has been very very quiet...

    Now I guess I'm having the last laugh! :LOL:
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Perhaps it is time to start a low-stress, re-education process on your colleague. Small steps perhaps starting with the number of mechanical moving parts in a Prius transmission. Include the absence of any clutches thanks to the electric motors and planetary gear. Suggest that the inverter and traction battery have only one moving part each, the inverter coolant pump and traction battery cooling fan.

    Then we can start including re-education of the Atkinson engine cycle explaining the power stroke has diesel expansion ratios. But the extended opening of the intake valve means it has 'low octane' gasoline compression ratios. There are more subtle effects but 'small bites.'

    Finally, see if you can take him out to lunch in your car and you have a beer or two. Ask him to drive you both back via some 'interesting' route. <grins>

    Bob Wilson