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  1. AncillaryRedoubt

    AncillaryRedoubt New Member

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    I recently purchased a used 2013 Prius V with 168k miles. I soon noticed that if I start the car and the engine starts while I'm still parked it will start very rough but will usually settle down. If the engine starts while I'm moving it starts much more smoothly. Either way I don't get any error or maintenance lights.
    I did some research and found the two common causes of EGR valve and head gasket. I took it to my trusted mechanic. He scanned the computer(s) for codes and found none. The coolant system was still pressurized and the oil was clean. Neither of us had time for more lengthy troubleshooting. I noticed the engine coolant was extremely low so he filled it for me and I drove it home. I've driven it for a few days and I think the coolant level has gone down, which has me fairly despondent.
    I really like the car and I don't want it to be a head gasket issue. I'm holding out hope because there weren't any computer codes and I would think that either the EGR or HG problems would lead to a light or a code.
    I'm mechanically competent, but don't have much experience with car maintenance. Is there any definitive troubleshooting I can do? Am I just kidding myself and I've unknowingly just purchased a big repair bill?
     
  2. AncillaryRedoubt

    AncillaryRedoubt New Member

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    I tried the putty knife test to block the EGR intake to the engine and the engine still started rough.
     

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  3. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Low coolant and cold start severe rattle occasionally equals leaking headgasket. A competent mechanic with a quality borescope can confirm or you can just wait, it will get worse. Unscrupulous sellers will often use a temporary sealer.

    Check with Hometown Hybrids for recommended shops. I prefer a rebuilt engine with Toyota's revised pistons and rings. Less than $5k installed.
     
    Tim Jones likes this.
  4. AncillaryRedoubt

    AncillaryRedoubt New Member

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    I'm not getting any codes. Would we need to look in each cylinder to see if one is leaking?
     
  5. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    A good borescope will often see a cleaner piston. In rare cases a superior borescope with a pressurized coolant system can see water drops at the head gasket. That requires a scope with multiple views. If it is losing coolant and has severe rattle, it is a very common head gasket.

    Usually observation alone is conclusive:
    Shudder video


    Detail for those in denial:

    I am afraid the head gasket issue is common in the 2010-14 1.8L Prius engines.

    Many go through an emotional roller coaster and try many other quick fixes, wasting money. Disregard the advice to clean egrs, change coil packs, plugs, etc. The pattern of many 1.8L head gasket failures is in your post and has been reported fifty times in this forum.

    Starts out with a very occasional rattle, sometimes weeks apart. No observable coolant loss or white smoke. Egr system is cleaned with much effort and the immediate results are good. A few days later the rattles return. Plugs, intakes and coils replaced with identical results. A few days grace each time only to be disappointed.

    A coolant hydrocarbon check or leakdown test will be negative in the early stages. Most mechanics believe this common diagnostic is conclusive but it ends up being a false negative in a week or two. Later when its rattling every other day and coolant is down by an inch, the hydrocarbon test "might" be positive. A borescope test is usually definitive by then. At gen3 head gasket end stage with rattling at stop signs and white smoke observable in the rear while revving, all leakdown and hydrocarbon tests are positive. Rarely will there be coolant in the oil.

    Initially hg leaks are slight, very occasional and don't present like traditional head gasket failures. Sometimes early teardowns don't have a physical break in the gasket but coolant leaks to the cylinder under the gasket. Apparently caused by minimal warping that is quickly sealed as the cylinder heats up. Uneven cylinder cooling design is a contributor. On occasion, a loosened head bolt achieves the same thing, typically after a poor repair. Worse case, "waiting" causes a rod to bend and eventually break. Holes in the block can result.

    Overall this is a flawed design that often points to the 2010-14 piston ring flaws which then aggravates a poor egr design. All redesigned by gen4 with the gen3 rings improved by mid 2014. Gen4 also significantly redesigned cylinder coolant passages and added an insulator.

    Get it fixed early.
     
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  6. AncillaryRedoubt

    AncillaryRedoubt New Member

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    Let's say it's a HG problem. What are my options?
    If I have the gasket replaced how long will that last before failing again?
    You mentioned getting a rebuilt engine. Would it have the updated design that's not susceptible to this problem? How would I go about pricing and getting that done?
     
  7. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    If it's low on water it IS the HEAD GASKET....100%
     
  8. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    If you get the head gasket replaced, immediately thereafter clean the EGR system (including intake manifold) thoroughly, or you’ll likely blow another head gasket, in another 10~20k miles.

    my 2 cents: a 3rd gen that’s had EGR cleanings every 50k miles will not blow the head gasket.

    I'm loath to quote these guys, but they do see a lot of 3rd gen head gasket failures. They say it's happening in all the years of 3rd gen, including the 2015's which for sure will have the revised pistons/rings:

    https://www.gasketmasters.com/head-gasket-replacement#:~:text=The%20head%20gasket%20on%20the,Gen4%20(2016%20and%20newer).
     
    #8 Mendel Leisk, Mar 14, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2023
  9. PTS

    PTS Junior Member

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    Egr cleaned every 50,000, head gasket blown at 167,000. Oil changes and fluid maintenance per Toyota. Hot and fast conditions in Texas.
     
  10. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Dang, that took the wind outa my sails… intake manifold included in that cleaning?
     
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  11. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    Another Junk toy HG goes down..... what a crappy design.......... but someone on here will tell you what a great car they have cause they have 40,000 miles on theirs and no problems.

    Then the brake sysetm...........traction battery

    The only thing good about the cars is the mpg................ I'll never own another one.
     
  12. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    ^^^This^^^ But it's much less work to do the EGR at the same time.

    It's pretty clear that the HG has failed. Gasketmasters makes one that's much better than the OEM gasket. There's another one with a good reputation, but I can't remember the name of it.

    However, if you do the HG and ignore what seems commonly accepted as the most likely cause of its failure, the new one won't last long. To remove the head, the intake manifold and egr cooler need to come off anyway, so go ahead and clean them along with the EGR valve and pipe. And don't forget those little ports in the IM; they clog unevenly and I think they are the real source of the HG troubles.
     
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  13. AncillaryRedoubt

    AncillaryRedoubt New Member

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    I was able to confirm that there's a bad leak on cylinder 2.
    I want to be able to drive this car for another 100k miles, if possible. I see two options before me (note: I am not doing this work myself):
    1 - replace the HG and do all the cleaning as recommended by Mendel and jerry ($2500)
    2- replace the whole engine ($5000)

    What's your recommendation? Also, should I be concerned that I haven't gotten any computer codes throughout all of this?
     
  14. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Just curious, who was the seller? I'd think the odds are good they were ditching the car...

    Tough call. If you can DIY head gasket it's less of an investment, time and expense. Otherwise trickier. One option in california is Hybrid Pit Stop; their gold package refurbed engines are just under $3K. They offer install, not sure how much.
    The code for EGR clogging is P0401 IIRC. One issue: the intake manifold EGR passages clog unevenly. Typically cylinder one can be nigh totally crusted up with carbon, while the rest are better, and the car's computers see semi-decent flow overall. It's the wall between cylinders one and two where the head gasket failures typically occur.

    Very frustrating. In reference to EGR clogging, Toyota says (in the Warranty Enhancement Program, dated May 2017):

    "while the majority of vehicles will not experience this condition"

    which is a flat-out lie; it happens to them all. They underline and italicize the statement too, just like the above.
     
  15. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    And remember the next 2 problems....
    Brake System $1500 or more
    Traction Battery...... $1500 and up if done yourself.... and get a New one...not rebuilt used.....
    And better change the water pump.
    I did my own head gasket and it wasn't fun but I had 2 other vehicles to drive... I started on Saturday and finished on the next Saturday.
     
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  16. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    With a head gasket problem you won't get codes because the misfire does not last long enough. Which basically eliminates bad plugs, coils and injectors. This scenario virtually confirms a head gasket problem.

    I would not count on a simple head gasket replacement giving you 100,000 more miles. Even with a thorough EGR and intake cleanup or replacement.

    However, a quality rebuilt engine built by an engine shop has every possibility of making another 150,000. At a minimum you want a one year warranty either way.
     
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  17. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    This car could go another 100 + thousand if....

    It doesn't use oil
    Didn't get to hot
    Change Water Pump
    Change Trani Fluid
    Rebuilt head.
    But looming brakes and traction battery. $3000 or more.