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DEJAVU Calling all Prius Sages to the Table!

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by lovemy02prius, Jun 29, 2018.

  1. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    Dejavu,
    I've been here before and the incredible people here really helped me!!!! Well here I am again! Me and a good friend are doing this project on my Florida screened in porch lol

    Today June 28th 2018

    Same car: Gen 1 2002 Prius W/ a Gen 1 HV Battery that's currently throwing codes and acting cooky.

    Error codes: p3006 unbalanced cells, p3018 bad cells in block 8 (module 15 or16) p3019 bad cells in block 9

    Here's my plan and I'm moving as fast as the safety protocol allows. (6 hours in so far)

    * remove disassemble and clean HV battery (done) (I used muriatic acid and wire brush)

    * test modules for normal readings using om reader (done - see below)

    * discharge and charge to the normal 7.40 - 8 v and swap out bad and borderline modules (cars sitting 48 hours hopefully discharging and we have a light handy to further discharge)

    * My secret back up plan (pick up a Gen1 battery w Gen3 modules and nickel plated busbar for $700 (if it exist at that price and sell the good Gen modules)

    I could be off but I'm thinking the typical blue corrosion present on my busbar caused my car to freak out and log the codes above. Then to add salt to the wound, (and something I will never do again) I kept driving the car w/ the codes which caused the unfortunate issues of the overcharged modules and 3 undercharged in the middle

    My first Module Voltage Readings

    38- 9.2
    19 - 35 9.15
    18 - 9.10
    17 - 6.79
    16 - 6.75
    15 - 6.85
    14 - 8.14
    13 - 8.14
    12 - 8.14
    4 - 11 8.15
    3 - 8.16
    2 - 8.16
    1 - 8.18

    _________________
    The Prius Sages here like Bob Wilson and Chap supplied me w much needed info and guidance back in 2014, I had 4 years of peace (well not really had to converter cooling fan and swap out the Stator, replaced my ac belt w a gen 2 ac belt to bypass the defunct pulley til i can remove the bad pulley and install the new pulley and try and restore my ac but that's another story) Right now I need to refresh reconnect with the wonderful Prius Sages of Priuschat.com and get through this new challenge! Looking forward to your input!

    Below are bits of important details I received in 2014. Let me know if anything needs updating! : ) just because i cut and pasted them here does not mean i remember what they all mean and how to sensibly apply the knowledge in the most efficient way.

    Test Modules
    Voltage Measures
    • 5.8V or lower - very, very risky. Try a charge but this is getting in a bad place.
    • 6.0V - lowest operational level, ~1V per cell
    • 8.0V - highest reasonable level, ~8/6V per cell or 1.333V per cell, as much as I feel comfortable with

    Test Tools
    • 100 ohm, 2 watt resistor
    • jumpers
    • VOM
    Protocol:
    1. Charge module to 7.5-8.0 V
    2. Monitor voltage across the 100 ohm resistor
    3. Connect it to module and write down starting voltage, Vhigh
    4. Disconnect when voltage reaches 6 V, Vlow
    5. (Vhigh + Vlow) / 2 ~= Va average voltage (*)
    6. Va / 100 ohms ~= average_amps
    7. average_amps * time_in_hours ~= Amp hour
    EXAMPLE using MRC 989 / SMART CHARGER - individually connect each module to the device configured to: (1) discharge to 6V., (2) charge at 1A to 8.0V, and (3) discharge to 6V while measuring the Ahr. All of the modules under 6V will need a starter charge to ~6.5V.


    My experience is a bad module will have a time measured in seconds. Potentially serviceable ones will run for +6 minutes. But a good battery charge/discharge unit will actually do the hard work and display the Ahr or milli-Ahr. Still, the resistor, voltmeter, wich is what humans did 200 years ago. <grins> Bob Wilson


    Guidelines
    1. No more than 0.3V difference between any pairing of modules - all 38 modules are measured in 19 module-pairs. The maximum difference is 0.3V or it will throw a code and not work.
    2. Modules need to have similar Ahr capacity - the current passes equally through all modules. So if you have a 2.5 Ahr module in series with a 5.0 Ahr module and both are at 6V, charging with 2.5A, the 2.5Ahr module will be at 8V in one hour and the 5.0 Ahr module at ~7V . . . this exceeds the 0.3V difference. Because in normal operation, the traction battery is kept between 40% and 80% charge, this allows some tolerance in the module Ahr capacity.
    THANK YOU!
     
  2. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    I can provide only my personal opinions:

    Modules 1-14 @ 8.1ish volts are pretty normal for a battery recently removed from the car.

    Modules 15, 16, 17 are done. Discard them. Don't waste your time. Why risk putting marginal (at best) modules into a pack that takes hours to assemble/disassemble.

    Modules 18-38...very odd to have a 1 volt difference (9.1ish) vs 8.1ish. Very unusual. My initial assumption was that you may have misread the 8 as a 9 for the first several readings, but then I saw that the car was driven while being continuously charged, so anything is possible. You may want to measure them all again. I would also verify the serial numbers on the modules to ensure manufacture date consistency.

    If these are original 2002 modules, I wouldn't spend much time or effort trying to cycle them to restore capacity. You're looking at weeks to try to do it even half decently with the equipment you have, and it probably won't make a significant difference. You really are looking at end of life for these modules. If you start deep cycling the "good" ones, you may quickly find out they're not so good after all and have another dozen dead ones like 15,16,17. At what point do you give up trying to get replacements that match them

    My recommendation is save your time and effort. Go with your secret plan now and get years and years of reliable use from your car.

    My secret back up plan (pick up a Gen1 battery w Gen3 modules and nickel plated busbar for $700

    My only comment on that is I don't know that Gen 1 replacements are built using Gen 3 modules. All the Gen 1 replacements I have seen, or currently have in my possession are made with recently manufactured Gen 1 style modules. Remember, Gen 2 and 3 modules are slightly longer than Gen 1 and have different style tabs on top.
     
  3. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    Thank you so much for your input! really appreciate it. I'll be away for a couple hours but I'll check back this evening. I'm not doing any more work on the car til I hear from a few more sages. : )
     
  4. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    Good morning,
    I have time today to read over what your wrote above and also can you please
    recommend or send me a link to a source to pick up the three modules I need ?
     
  5. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    The HV has been sitting for 3 days so we retested and here's the results::
    38 7.91
    37 7.90
    35-36 7.89
    32-34 7.87

    31 7.86
    30 7.85
    29 7.86
    28 7.85
    27 7.86
    19-26 7.85

    18 7.57
    17 6.37
    16 6.15
    15 6.32

    6 -14 7.85
    4-5 7.87
    2-3 7.89
    1 7.90


    Option 1
    i can
    replace the 3 bad modules (15 16 and 17) and maybe 18 or charge 18 and shuffle it. Then charge all Modules to 8v and reinstall them and hope for the best.

    Can anyone share links to an affordable smart device to charge the modules? is the MRC 989 / SMART CHARGER a good one?


    Option 2
    I can pic up a Gen 1 rebuilt pack w Gen 2 Modules already to go from a local guy who builds them with a nickel plated bus bar for $700 + 250 core charge and sell my Gen 1 good modules or give up my core (but i don't think thats a good idea)


    Does anyone have an idea how long the Gen 2 Modules last? I hear 400xxx but not sure if that's true.

    He said the Modules he used to build a pack for me are from a car that was wrecked with 100xxx miles. The Modules seem to be in excellent condition with a 12 month warranty. The guy claims he follows all the recommended guidelines to test the modules and he uses a "Toyota Module / Cell tester" (not a smart tester) he said these Modules have good results on all levels and they are properly conditioned and balanced.


    Option 3
    Also was looking at a third option (but it's more money then I care to invest) at the latest test HV's w updated modules that are bigger and use fewer $1600 inc shipping and no core charge for Gen 2-3 not sure how much for Gen 1 (but i hope more affordable!) These are from NewPriusBatteries.com there's a healthy discussion that's been going on here at the link below:
    Prius Battery Replacement Kit (GenII/GenIII) with NEW custom cells | PriusChat
     
    #5 lovemy02prius, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  6. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    Good morning TMR - JWAP
    Are you around?

    Where did you order the remanufactured modules from? how much ? or remanufactured hv? just want to add that as Option 4

    which option looks smartest and most advantageous to you? Keep In Mind - i can recoup about $600-900 from my HV PARTS
     
  7. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    "conversation" me. I can work with you / give you some options.
     
    #7 TMR-JWAP, Jul 2, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
    Raytheeagle likes this.
  8. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    Hello, i click on conversation..thanks for helping me!! Michy
     
    Raytheeagle likes this.
  9. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    im here...im sitting here discharging the bad modules down to 6v getting ready to charge them to 8v then add a resist and try and read the ohm. Had to do something productive w what i got. Didn't order the 3 gen 1 modules or

    were using a fluke model 87 meter
    a matco test light (25 years old) lol I think its 1.5 watts or 2 watts
    and a 3 amp battery charger and may have another battery charger..
     
    #9 lovemy02prius, Jul 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  10. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    I wrote down your number. It's probably best to edit your post and delete it before it gets picked up by every bot on the internet and you start getting weird calls. I'll send my contact info to you.
     
  11. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    lol THANK YOU! let me grab my phone! you calling me now?