Democrats and Terror - Role Playing

dragonfly · Aug 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 10 2006, 08:24 AM) [snapback]300751[/snapback]</div>

With the latest terror plot now disabled, lets play a game.

Assume they were successful and 20+ fully loaded planes blew up over American cities killing over SIX thousand Americans (20 planes x 300 passengers per; add some Americans killed by the debris of the planes falling down, add another plane or two and 6,000 deaths is a conservative figure). And al-Qaeda / Islamofascists were responsible. Some were home grown terrorists from England and some came from Saudi, Egypt, Iran - or had ties there, had training there, or had backing from there. Kind of like 9/11 but adding some home grown British Muslim terrorists.

What would you Democrats do in response to this? Assume you have President Hilary Clinton and control both Houses - carte blanch control of the military, purse strings, etc - no limitations to your imagination here.

Go for it...
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I would go after OBL and AQ with a vengence like we should have done in the first place.

dbermanmd · Aug 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kingofgix @ Aug 10 2006, 05:47 PM) [snapback]301099[/snapback]</div>

You're not getting an answer because it has already been given to you, repeatedly. Apparently you are incapable of comprehending the right answer.
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If doing nothing in retaliation to mass murder is the right answer from people on this BB - than so be it. My "incomprehension" of [your] right answer may reside in my inability to understand why [you] would no nothing in response to the mass murder of 6,000 of your fellow citizens.

Do you live in CT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Erik Tkal @ Aug 10 2006, 06:52 PM) [snapback]301148[/snapback]</div>

Alric posted the correct answer, why are you still trolling?

The problem with terrorist acts is that if you change your behaviour then the terrorists have already won.

Think of the reasons someone would want to kill others.

1) For the fun of it. These people are mentally unstable.

2) For revenge. Sometimes local people, usually lower class, who have been hurt by society in some way, often taken advantage of by the greed and selfishness of others. Sometimes foreigners who have been hurt by military actions or sanctions by our government.

3) To make a political or social statement. These people often disagree with the actions or behaviour of a government or peoples.

4) Anarchists. They thrive on chaos and revel in the world around them being out of control, it gives them a sense of advantage.

5) To make a mark in the world. These are like hackers, they crave attention and will perform antisocial acts rather than conform. Not too far from #1 above.

You state that you only will allow discussion of the ex post facto scenario, yet the only action there is to punish those responsible, which really only applies to cases 1, 4 and 5, a tiny fraction of the true terrorism issues in the world today (e.g. Timothy McVeigh).

What takes real guts is changing the scenario entirely by determining the root causes of hatred. Some examples and possible solutions are:

1) Poverty. Can be helped by implementing consistent and fair healthcare and public assistance programs. Sure, there are arguments against this, but as long as human nature includes taking advantage of others someone is going to get stepped on unless there are social controls in place, both to enable those in dire straights and to limit abuse from both those being serviced and those providing services.

2) Greed. It's amazing how our corporate and political systems are intertwined through lobbying and corruption to enable entire industries to take advantage of people. The loopholes and leeway granted to pharmaceutical, petroleum and insurance companies are embarassing, and are putting a huge strain on our citizens.

3) International hubris. The United States, for all its power and capability, shows incredible stupidity when it comes to understanding and dealing with other countries and cultures. We prop up dictatorships when it's expedient for us (remember Saddam Hussein?), and we devastate countries when we feel like it (remember Saddam Hussein?). We support repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia, and we ignore war and famine unless we stand to lose monetarily or politically. We try to impose our own beliefs and culture on others.

4) Political hubris. The Bush administration has lost all respect of the majority of the citizens of this country, mostly through their inability to place the citizens above political ambition. Even the reponse to terrorist acts is to play to our fears and make us more afraid and we thus become less rational in our discussion, which is a known psychological effect of fear, and is exactly why terrorists do what they do. In fact it could be argued that enhancing and inflating the risks of not going along with the politicians currently in power is itself an act of terrorism, cloaked in nationalism ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists" - GW Bush; "we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud" - Condoleezza Rice; "the British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa" - GW Bush; "[Hussein] had long-established ties with al Qaeda" - Dick Cheney).

I could go on and on, but we as a nation must rise above and address these issues. By evading laws and spying on our own citizens without cause we are lowering ourselves to the level of the terrorists. I happen to believe that we are far better than that. We must participate in the world community, not flout it. We should rebuild the United Nations and allow *every* nation to participate and be involved in discussions. We should obey our own laws, or open discussion as to why they should be changed.

Your own comment of "I am assuming by your response that you would do nothing in response to 6,000 dead American citizens?" presents a false choice; that there is a specific thing one might do as direct retribution is disingenuous at best, and completely avoids real discussion of the real issues.
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If your response to the mass murder of 6,000 of your fellow citizens is to talk and try to understand why it happened - fine. At what # of casualties would you actually go beyond talking?

Historically FDR needed less than 3,000 to declare war on two countries - one of which did not attack us.
Kennedy got us into Vietnam with no American loss of life as did Truman.

What is your # of dead Americans that would launch you to retaliate? Or would you prefer to bury the dead and just try to understand why they died?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Aug 10 2006, 06:09 PM) [snapback]301108[/snapback]</div>

We should go with your final solution. Kill all muslims.
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Not my solution. I wanted to know what you would do?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Aug 10 2006, 11:28 PM) [snapback]301294[/snapback]</div>

We have a "premise" issue here. If you have the premise that the terrorists are "freedom fighters" (wanting homeland back), or "justice seekers" (wanting revenge for being treated badly, or "wanting something we can give" (like money, technology, etc) then you believe that WE (the US or the western world) can just DO something to stop the killing.

I, and many others, on the other hand, have the premise that the terrorists (the ISLAMO-FACISTS) simply want all non muslims DEAD or totally SUBJUGATED.

(Kind of like the martians on the movie Mars Attacks (worth watching BTW)

Substitute the word "paradigm" for "premise".

Based on this, the two types of people CANNOT possibly agree on the solution.
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You might be dead (pun intended) on here - but what would you have done if they succeeded?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Aug 10 2006, 11:34 PM) [snapback]301296[/snapback]</div>

I would go after OBL and AQ with a vengence like we should have done in the first place.
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Are you supporting US invading or not respecting another countries international borders to get at al-Qaeda and/or OBL.

And what if the plot were Iranian based - or not related in toto to "AQ" or OBL? Would you seek to neutralize them?

And, by the way, thanks for your response - the first one of a long day.

KMO · Aug 11, 2006

I'm somewhat perplexed as to what sort of "retaliation" you want? It seems to me that you have some sort of urge to go out and kill people to make yourself feel better. A bit like the Israeli logic - if you can kill at least 3 times as many innocent civilians as they do, then your side is "winning". Never mind if it means greater total loss of life on your side.

Presumably the sheer pleasure of killing thousands of "them" is somehow worth the price of inciting the deaths of hundreds more of "us".

tomdeimos · Aug 11, 2006

Why are you asking what democrats would do? I don't see the republicans in power doing anything useful.

dbermanmd · Aug 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KMO @ Aug 11 2006, 08:43 AM) [snapback]301417[/snapback]</div>

I'm somewhat perplexed as to what sort of "retaliation" you want? It seems to me that you have some sort of urge to go out and kill people to make yourself feel better. A bit like the Israeli logic - if you can kill at least 3 times as many innocent civilians as they do, then your side is "winning". Never mind if it means greater total loss of life on your side.

Presumably the sheer pleasure of killing thousands of "them" is somehow worth the price of inciting the deaths of hundreds more of "us".
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Try to leave the anti-Semetism at home for a minute or two. Play along here. 6,000 Americans were murdered by Muslim terrorists by blowing up a number of planes crossing the Atlantic Ocean. You are President of the US - what do you do?

As a sidebar that needs not take precedent here: you think the terror plot that was broken up yesterday in England was due the Israeli-Palestinian "conflict"? Was 9/11 due to that to?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tomdeimos @ Aug 11 2006, 09:50 AM) [snapback]301443[/snapback]</div>

Why are you asking what democrats would do? I don't see the republicans in power doing anything useful.
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My bad. This question is open to all of all political ideologies including those that do not have any.
Again, this is a model to be played with. Go for it. You are now President and you have 6,000 dead Americans from yesterdays terror attack downing a # of civilian jets over US skies. What do you, Mr. President, do?

IsrAmeriPrius · Aug 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KMO @ Aug 11 2006, 05:43 AM) [snapback]301417[/snapback]</div>

A bit like the Israeli logic - if you can kill at least 3 times as many innocent civilians as they do, then your side is "winning".[/b]
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KMO, you are out of line here. Unlike Hezbollah, Israel does not target civilians. It weapons are not full of shrapnel and ball bearings designed to maximize injuries and loss of life. The loss of Lebanese civilian life is very regrettable; however, there would be little, if any of it, if it were not for Hezbollah's use civilians as shields for its infrastructure, weapons and terrorists.

kingofgix · Aug 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 11 2006, 08:02 AM) [snapback]301405[/snapback]</div>

If doing nothing in retaliation to mass murder is the right answer from people on this BB - than so be it. My "incomprehension" of [your] right answer may reside in my inability to understand why [you] would no nothing in response to the mass murder of 6,000 of your fellow citizens.

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No. Your incomprehension is solely the result of your inability to comprehend what has been clearly written, coupled with your continual twisting of others words into some fantasy that you have in your head. As a result you will perpetually reside in a world of total delusion and will never understand the true answer that many others on this board have so plainly stated.

Now, why don't you quit wasting everyone's time with your delusional ramblings....

dbermanmd · Aug 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kingofgix @ Aug 11 2006, 11:47 AM) [snapback]301500[/snapback]</div>

No. Your incomprehension is solely the result of your inability to comprehend what has been clearly written, coupled with your continual twisting of others words into some fantasy that you have in your head. As a result you will perpetually reside in a world of total delusion and will never understand the true answer that many others on this board have so plainly stated.

Now, why don't you quit wasting everyone's time with your delusional ramblings....
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i did not realize i was holding you hostage to your keyboard. you are not being forced to participate. in fact you have done nothing towards the original intent of the post except obfuscate - so just ignore them.

and these are not delusional rantings. these are scenarios that are being played out in think tanks and to a lesser extent have happened already as in 9/11.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Aug 11 2006, 11:26 AM) [snapback]301492[/snapback]</div>

KMO, you are out of line here. Unlike Hezbollah, Israel does not target civilians. It weapons are not full of shrapnel and ball bearings designed to maximize injuries and loss of life. The loss of Lebanese civilian life is very regrettable; however, there would be little, if any of it, if it were not for Hezbollah's use civilians as shields for its infrastructure, weapons and terrorists.
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exactly. and who does he blame when the hezbo's hide munitions in mosques and in the basements of apartment buildings - or fight from these structures. the laws of warfare are clear in each of these instances - and yet he blames Israel/(aka the Jews) - no one has to wonder why.

dragonfly · Aug 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 11 2006, 07:02 AM) [snapback]301405[/snapback]</div>

Are you supporting US invading or not respecting another countries international borders to get at al-Qaeda and/or OBL.
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We already have the cooperation of Pakastan and Afghanistan to go after OBL and his immediate associates, so I suppose you're referring to Q cells in other countries. This depends on the situation, so you'll have to give me a for instance.

And what if the plot were Iranian based - or not related in toto to "AQ" or OBL? Would you seek to neutralize them?
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I assume you mean based from a group within Iran, and not the Iranian gov't itself. In that case I would appeal to the Iranian gov't to go after the group, and my further decisions would depend on their response to that appeal.

And, by the way, thanks for your response - the first one of a long day.
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You're welcome!

GreenGene · Aug 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 10 2006, 09:24 AM) [snapback]300751[/snapback]</div>

With the latest terror plot now disabled, lets play a game.

Assume they were successful and 20+ fully loaded planes blew up over American cities killing over SIX thousand Americans (20 planes x 300 passengers per; add some Americans killed by the debris of the planes falling down, add another plane or two and 6,000 deaths is a conservative figure). And al-Qaeda / Islamofascists were responsible. Some were home grown terrorists from England and some came from Saudi, Egypt, Iran - or had ties there, had training there, or had backing from there. Kind of like 9/11 but adding some home grown British Muslim terrorists.

What would you Democrats do in response to this? Assume you have President Hilary Clinton and control both Houses - carte blanch control of the military, purse strings, etc - no limitations to your imagination here.

Go for it...
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Let's see. I'd do my very best to determine who was responsible, and then I'd attack a country that didn't have a damn thing to do with it. Maybe Venezuela?

A stupid-nice person post - terrorism is a game now? - merits a stupid-nice person answer.

Damn troll.

MarinJohn · Aug 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tomdeimos @ Aug 11 2006, 06:50 AM) [snapback]301443[/snapback]</div>

Why are you asking what democrats would do? I don't see the republicans in power doing anything useful.
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this is a tatic used by those who can't lead. They make a mess then want others to clean it up. Lets be real. Republicans have made a mess of everything they have touched. They control the 3 branches of government and by extension have control of the military and spy agencies and still blew it royally. Most presidents have not had the luxury of controlling everything and still have done an adequate job. Now neocons come running to those who really know how to govern and want them to make it all better. Be clear. Dems don't have to do anything to help the neocons. Even if they did have a majic bullet the neocons would just hijack the 'cure' as their own. The WWJD (WWDems D) scenario is one believed in and practiced by those who can't think for themselves. It's an immature tatic. Mess it up and then come running to mommy to fix it. The answer is quite simple and used every day in knick knack stores. You break it, you pay for it.

Naturally, they'll pay dearly for their arrogance in the next elections. Just as naturally, excise taxes on war profiteers must be enacted. This is a war which benefits oil companies the most as evidenced by their obscene profits. They should be paying for the whole mess in taxes which they should not be allowed to pass on to consumers. So investments in oil companies would then be flat for a couple of years. So what. When you buy stock you buy into the good and the bad years of the underlying company.

Let's be very clear. You support an incompetent, you pay the price. You get dissed. Your country goes from hope and budget surplusses to despair and ruin. If the tables had been turned the neocons would be raging uncontrollably as evidenced by the way they treated our last president.

Wildkow · Aug 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 10 2006, 08:32 AM) [snapback]300830[/snapback]</div>

No takers or would you all just say sorry to the family members and friends we would be burying over the next few weeks?
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dbermanmd!

As an MD I am surprised at you! You don't recognize the demoncrats method but you have seen it before.

Their solution is to treat the symptoms and leave the underlying cause alone. Why? Because they have no solution! Only hate. <_<

Wildkow

IsrAmeriPrius · Aug 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Aug 11 2006, 10:02 PM) [snapback]301981[/snapback]</div>

Their solution is to treat the symptoms and leave the underlying cause alone.[/b]
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And you guys would amputate the entire leg to treat an ingrown toenail.

Wildkow · Aug 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Aug 11 2006, 10:09 PM) [snapback]301982[/snapback]</div>

And you guys would amputate the entire leg to treat an ingrown toenail.
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You go to the Doctor for an ingrown toenail?!? Geeeeez man grow a pair would ya!?! I just whack the offending toe off by myself! Three more of those pesky problems and I won't ever have to do that procedure again. :lol: Im my unscientific opinion, (I don't believe in evolution that must mean I'm not a scientist)your solution would still leave the underlying cause untreated even though it (the cause) was eliminated.

Wildkow

p.s. Your reply was kinda funny actually, but I would never do that to someone unless that someone was a terrorist.

Alric · Aug 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Aug 12 2006, 01:23 AM) [snapback]302009[/snapback]</div>

Im my unscientific opinion, (I don't believe in evolution that must mean I'm not a scientist)
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You got it.

Democrats and Terror - Role Playing

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