Diagnosing Cheap 3rd Gen Buys

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by Pollymath, Mar 4, 2020.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    well done!(y)
     
  2. Ed Beaty

    Ed Beaty Active Member

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    "Powersports batteries are way cheaper, but will require adapters."

    SURE, go CHEAP as you can on that battery! It's only one of the most critical operating components of your Prius...
     
  3. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    Don’t let the guy who posted rear back up guidelines are much more important than clean hybrid fan CEL see your comment
     
  4. NewHybridOwner

    NewHybridOwner Active Member

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    AFAIK, powersports batteris are not AGM. The Prius charging system is designed for AGM batteries and may not do a good job on a powersports battery.
     
  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sunday driver DIY’r

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    AFAIK the main criteria for using AGM is because they emit little or no gas. Any that is emitted is through a vent that is compatible with the Prius' exhaust vent tube.
     
  6. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    Thought the 12v tells the hv battery to fire up the vehicle so quality just has to be at a certain standard and not required to be that good of a battery with deep cycle capabilities.
     
  7. NewHybridOwner

    NewHybridOwner Active Member

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    I have two battery chargers with separate settings for AGM batteries.
     
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  8. Pollymath

    Pollymath Junior Member

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    I've read there are three criteria important to batteries for the Prius, well maybe four if you count it's small size:

    AGM - because inside the vehicle.
    Ability to accept higher than 12v charging (apparently the Prius charges at nearly 14v)
    Substantial Amp Hour rating - gotta run all those accessories at full 12v for a long period of time.

    Scooter batteries are cheap and plentiful, but they don't like higher than 12v charging, and their Ah output is below 12v.

    Powersport batteries like motorcycle and ATVs are also cheap, but they rarely have more than 20Ah ratings, and if they do...they are as expensive as a Group 51 or S46B24R.

    This is the same case for lightweight lithium ion motorsport batteries (Braille, AntiGravity, MMG, etc) - high CCA ratings in small packages, but limited Amp Hours, unless you go up range to $250+ batteries...at which point you might as well use the Prius battery.

    The Prius battery is like a high performance battery. Small, AGM, lots of storage, and well...sorta expensive.
     
  9. Pollymath

    Pollymath Junior Member

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    In other news, I'm intrigued by "Red Bullet" solenoid, and stumbled upon the more expensive "Quantum Solenoid" that is quite popular among Prius "tuners" in Japan. I don't think I'll spend the money, but an odd bit of automotive mystery that one is.

    I am far more interested in lifting my 3rd Gen, as I'm surrounded by forest roads and janky curb-cuts that mean lots of high-siding and bumper scraping.
     
  10. Ed Beaty

    Ed Beaty Active Member

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    "an odd bit of automotive mystery that one is."
    Indeed, and the producer has presented no (none) actual data on how it performs. Everything is anecdotal...
     
  11. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sunday driver DIY’r

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    My CTEK chargers recommend charging at the slightly higher voltage settings, only for 6-pack style AGM's, not the rectangular case AGM's, the OEM Yuasa for example.

    Which came first, chicken or egg? Fourth gen has relegated the battery to the engine bay, and is using conventional lead-acid.
     
  12. Pollymath

    Pollymath Junior Member

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    Quantum Solienoid (which make an identical looking thing, also for the Prius as well as tons of other models) has posted some Dyno plots with rather impressive improvements (on a Lexus LS460). Lexus owners have also experimented with them, getting a mixed bag of improvements. One guy said he could swear it felt faster on the but dyno, and the car did get better MPG, but on the actual dyno, it lost power. Maybe that was just a product of swapping between the valve timing solenoids faster than the ECU could adapt. Others have contended that these solenoids just change the curves of the timing, making the car feel faster, even if its not really.

    Quantum Solenoid has a long technical pdf discussing what they are (supposedly) doing.
     
  13. 2012 Prius v wagon 3

    2012 Prius v wagon 3 Active Member

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    Good logically presented info. I'll expand on a few things.

    Yes, the first thing you need is for the battery to be 12V, the second thing is for it to fit.

    Two distinct safety issues here. Don't forget about the second one.
    1 - any battery can vent gas - hydrogen or hydrogen sulfide. The latter is poisonous; the former not so good either in the presence of oxygen and an ignition source.
    2 - a flooded lead acid battery has the electrolyte in the form of sulfuric acid. Any passenger car will be designed so that in the event of an accident, the car will be as safe as possible, so considering that the battery might be punctured and spill liquid acid throughout the car is something they avoid by design. AGM batteries do not have liquid acid that will spill and spray when the case is punctured.

    True. A voltmeter on the battery while the car is turned on will confirm this. But all car batteries are charged at about 14.x V from the alternator, so any difference here is not dramatic.

    Well yes, if you run accessories while the car is off. Something that can easily be avoided if it's actually a concern. And no matter what battery you have, some amount of running accessories with the charging source of will kill it below its ability to get the car running or "ON."

    As I understand it, the function of the 12V battery in the Prius is far less critical that in a regular car. In a regular car, it needs to provide sufficient current while maintaining voltage for enough time to get the engine started (for example, supplying the starter with 300+ Amps at 10+ Volts for 10+ seconds), otherwise you are stuck. In the Prius, it needs to power up some circuits and close the relay to engage the high voltage battery. Critical, but that seems to be far less demanding that in a convential car. Once the traction battery is engaged, it will use the DC-DC converter to maintain 14.x Volts at the battery, at which point the 12V battery is mainly a buffer to voltage fluctuations while running the car's 12V accessories (virtually everything outside the powertrain).

    I would not even consider a scooter battery, etc. Plenty of legit automotive batteries to choose from. I have an Optima 34/78 Red Top in my 2012 v. I mainly put that in as an experiment soon after getting the car, and since I just transplanted it from a little-used car in my fleet.

    That PDF looks like BS to me. Aftermarket production of a critical Toyota part. Supported with 7th grade science terms and handwaving (e.g., equations that don't actually support what they're trying to say, but are used as props). No way I believe that Toyota's part would be so deficient, unless everybody else tells me the Toyota part sucks. Have not heard that.
     
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  14. Pollymath

    Pollymath Junior Member

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    Are there any cheaper AGM batteries that will fit into the 3rd Gen Prius battery spot? I've modded plenty of battery hold downs to fit more ideal battery.

    My truck is currently running a AGM battery I got on sale that is shorter but wider than stock, but it provides higher cranking amps and more reserve power than the stock we group size.
     
  15. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    Mod eh? Rumor has it that a feller started his prius with d cell batteries. I don’t know what else will be cheaper than that.
     
  16. Pollymath

    Pollymath Junior Member

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    You seen the prices of D Batteries lately?
     
  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sunday driver DIY’r

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    Check with your automotive retailers. Up here Canadian Tire is pretty much it, I think. I should check Napa too. I suspect phoning up the dealership, the price would be over $300 (CDN) by now (haven't checked in a few years), so this is a "bargain":

    upload_2020-3-19_14-40-50.png
    Addendum: Napa Canada seems out-to-lunch, can't even access their site. Considering my recent shopping experiences there, I really think they're about to fold.
     
  18. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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  19. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    Have no ideal why it posted so many times!
     
  20. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    Have no ideal why it posted so many times!
     
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