Did you consider the Honda Clarity before your Prius Prime?

When real money is involved, our species is pretty good, not perfect, but pretty good at shopping.

Metrics are a hard problem because they come from the built-in versus a properly instrumented vehicle:

• 199 MPG - comes from the Prius Prime tripmeters and Odometer. Gas has been burned but the electric miles are treated as '199 MPG' and I don't have a way to get any another metric from the car for these miles.
• 58 MPG - It comes from a round trip to Knoxville TN and back which was gas powered. Unlike my delivery drive home, this was in Standard day temperatures after the car had been broken in and both engine and transmission oil changed.
• 40 MPG - Comes from a set of benchmarks done in Standard day temperatures. I needed these metrics to plan a 700 mile, each way, trip to Stillwater OK.
• 180 MPG - this was estimate based partially on the '199 MPG' of the Prime and the relative electrical efficiencies of the two vehicles. In reality, the MPG when in electric mode are well above 199 MPG but I don't have instrumentation recording these incredibly high numbers.

In a perfect world, every tripmeter and the odometer would have:

• distance
• fuel consumed
• kWh consumed
• time

But we only have the metrics built into the cars and they appear to be aimed at lay people.

Bob Wilson

 

Bob,
You said it "Lay People".
Those 'incredibly high numbers' have a value. It's Infinite. You are not using ANY gas in EV mode. Period.

I drove a PHEV (that is vastly superior to the Prime) for 2 yrs and that Silly "built into the car" Display was always pegged at its max of "+250 MPG".
I never had the nerve to tell anyone "I get +250 MPG".
My current BEV gets ∞ MPG and I do tell people that !! Because it's true.

I owned a Gen3 Prius and I test drove an i3 Rex for 4 days. I know what I'm talking about.
That i3 would be a very weird road trip car, but capable! I saw that the 33 HP engine would maintain 80 MPH (in its series hybrid mode) on the lonesome prairie, but I doubt you'd want to cross the Rockies in one.

 

Actually I'm pretty happy with both of our plug-in hybrids but every 1,000 miles or so, they each use a little gas. Sometimes it is by plan but sometimes stuff happens. Usually it is when I find an occupied EVSE or ICEd. However, sometimes they break down and need repair. Regardless of cause, having the ICE solves the problem and I keep on rolling.

The gas-only numbers are pretty solid but the mixed EV and gas numbers, I just don't have a good metric. So I use what I can show to others.

Bob Wilson

 

I agree, the mixed numbers always have 'qualifiers'.
So that should be stated when describing this to people that don't understand.
The EV miles are not free miles, so the 'Inflated' gas mpg numbers are not good for anything,, except misplaced 'bragging rights'.

 

Yet, that's what we have to deal with. Volt owners set that precedence, despite the obvious attempt to mislead. We fought the "not free" for years... and still do:

31 kWh/100mi for Clarity

31 kWh/100mi for Volt

25 kWh/100mi for Prime

How often do you see those efficiency numbers posted? Eliminating gas usage entirely reveals not all electric travel is the same. Some use more than others to drive the same distance. Posting inflated values will conceal that fact.

For Clarity, that value isn't so bad, when you consider how much larger it is than Prime. But when you look at Volt, it's a guzzler of electricity compared to Prime. Requiring an addition 6 kWh to go 100 miles is a big deal. Those EV miles are not free miles.

 

Yes, yes, the fight....

It is not a big deal.
It's $0.72 per 100 miles (for me...), in exchange for having a Full Featured EV capable of ~50 miles of EV range, fast acceleration, top speed of 101 MPH, preconditioning at any hot or cold ambient temp,,, All without the smelly gasser firing up for ANY REASON.
That, and the lack of 10k mile oil changes, adds up to a Big Deal to some savvy PHEV shoppers.

I agree, that combined "+250 MPG" is a 'Make Pretend' number for ANY PHEV.
We should all fight your good fight, and stop talking that nonsense.

 

Just because something is affordable is no reason to waste it.

Switching from guzzling gas to guzzling electricity is not a comprehensive solution. Emissions are still very much a problem when that consumption is considered on the large scale. 17,000,000 new vehicles are purchased in the United States alone each year. Worldwide the count is somewhere around 60,000,000.

We don't have enough solar, wind, and hydro power to supply that much clean electricity, nor do we have the infrastructure to support it.

This is a perfect example of the short-sightedness problem I just pointed out on another thread.

 

But, but, if you are using the electricity in a ~50 mile range PHEV, how is that is WASTING it?
It is USING it to offset the gas and oil consumed in lesser range PHEV's.

That is seeing the Big Picture that I am always talking about.

TCO of ownership is different for everyone, but generally it's better for all when you can go farther on electrons instead of gas.
We agree on that !!

 

Just a minor point:

• BEV - requires attention to trip SOC to avoid the road-side, out of charge.
• PHEV - can use all of the battery SOC since the engine minimizes road-side, out of charge.

For example, during freezing weather last winter, the ICE in our Prime came on about three blocks from home when the SOC deteriorated faster than expected. I usually get 1 mile for every 3% SOC but that cold day, I missed it by less than 1/2 mile. It was a minor annoyance versus something taking more time, labor, and expense.

Experimentally I've measured what happens with our Prime when it is out of gas and battery charge. It is not a trivial problem that just adding a spare gallon and you can go on your way. There is a software latch that requires a 12V power-on-reset to clear it before the car will start the engine.

Bob Wilson

 

You have to give people options in order to switch from their current ICE vehicle(the real competitor you like to remind us). If you do not, they will just stick to guzzling gasoline.

Even with attractive options, the plug in adoption rate will not be instant. There will be time for build up of renewable electric sources and storage solutions for it. The US grid is already moving away from coal, and the renewable portion is growing.

 

Well Mr. Since2002,
The SOB's at that station that I called requesting the pricing on H 35 and H 70, never bothered to ever call me back of course.
Just by accident today Sunday the 29th of April, as I was returning from my son's soccer game, way the heck out in Lake Forest, I happened to see a hydrogen station set up at a Chevron dealer. I saw that both the H35 and the H70 were sold at $1.67 per kilogram. You're welcome! And of course, there were no electric charging stations anywhere to be found in the area.

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
AChoiredTaste.com

 

Thank you!

Apparently a decimal out of place, that's probably $16.70 per kilogram, which is almost exactly the same price mentioned in the November 2017 San Diego Union-Tribune article.

The Clarity tank holds 5.5 kg (range 366 miles), so $91.18 to fill the tank.

The Mirai tank holds 4.7 kg (range 312 miles), $78.99 to fill the tank.

If they still gave out Blue Chip Stamps and S&H Green Stamps with each fill up, at those prices you would earn enough stamps for a toaster oven in no time.

 

This one?
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6615429,-117.6680892,3a,90y,298.34h,96.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9tyAvGeOaQC5yH_KKUkFaQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Lake Forest
20731 Lake Forest Drive, Lake Forest, CA 92630


Renewable Hydrogen: 33%

H35 Status
ONLINE
H70 Status
ONLINE
Station Type Retail - Open
Development Status Open - Retail
Expected to Open 2016-03-18
Fuel Pressure 35/70 MPa
Hydrogen Source Gaseous H2 Delivery
Opening Hours 24/7
Station Website Visit
Station Customer Service (844) 878-9376 ​

Bob Wilson

 

Yup! That are the one, Uncle Bob!

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
AChoiredTaste.com

 

In what is apparently another coincidence, a hydrogen truck happened to be at the Lake Forest station when the Google Maps street view photo was taken, just like at the Anaheim station.





I found out that unlike gasoline trucks, hydrogen trucks don't offload hydrogen at fueling stations they instead leave the trailer with the compressed tanks onsite. The driver then hooks up one of the cylinders to the system. As far as I know when a cylinder is getting low someone has to hook up the next cylinder. I doubt if one of the gas station employees does that most likely someone from the hydrogen company comes by and does it, probably they have remote monitoring at their office to know when it's time to change cylinders.

For a moment I thought maybe it's too much coincidence that both street view photos were taken with a hydrogen truck there, I thought maybe they leave a second trailer of hydrogen cylinders in the parking lot. However that seems highly unlikely that it would be left exposed like that unattended. And in fact in the photos you can see the drivers in both locations. In the above photo of Lake Forest you can see the driver setting out cones around the trailer. And at Anaheim in the photo below I circled in red where you can see the gate to the hydrogen storage area is open, and you can even see the driver looking at the pump display.



Also interesting is that in an aerial view of Lake Forest you can see what appears to be a trailer with hydrogen cylinders in the enclosed area behind the pump. The roof of the trailer is open, I'm sure for ventilation, which is why the cylinders are visible in the aerial view.

 

I just called the 'Customer Support' and asked about the price of hydrogen per kilogram. They may call back or send a text. We'll see.

Bob Wilson

 

$17 a Kg, say 28 cents a mile for dirty fuel !?
This is a tough choice, but I'm going to stick with my PV powered EV at 0.5 cents a mile for now

 

Uncle Bob,
I think that hydrogen sales are controlled by the CIA or the NSA, because it's a secret and they don't want us to know.
I've called yet again and they don't know; they're going to look it up; and they're going to call us back, it's all a bunch of BS!! Of course they want to know my name, my phone number, my location, etc. so they can milk me for all the information I have.
Well hold my horses!! As I was writing this post, I received a call from "Jack" at the main Irvine location with pricing. Including tax, he says it's about $16.50/kg. For a full 5kg H70 (H35 is same price, but this lower pressure can only fill tank halfway) fill up of a Mirai, it would cost $82.50, for about a 270 mile range. I'm rushing right down to my Toyota dealer to trade in my Prime for this SENSATIONAL energy bargain!!

I think that toaster oven would be more efficient as a car than that hydrogen powered nonsense!

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
AChoiredTaste.com

 

So if we use Los Angles electricity rates, "18.4 cents per kWh", we find:

• 26 kWh / 100 mi * $0.184/kWh = $4.78 / 100 miles - Model 3
• (5 kg * $16.50/kg ) = $82.50 / 312 mi = $26.44 / 100 miles - Toyota Miri

You can go just as far at 5 times the cost.

Bob Wilson

ps.

• 25 kWh / 100 mi * $0.184 / kWh = $4.60 / 100 miles - Prius Prime in EV
• 1.9 gal / 100 mi * $3.66 / gal = $6.96 / 100 miles - Prius Prime on gas

 

Uh, my wife never decided to take a look at the Prius Prime. She got the Clarity over her other choices:

Ioniq
Sonata
Optima
Nero
Bolt
Volt
Ford Energi (both C-MAX and Fusion)
A3
530e
Mercedes E, (or was it C), Class.