Did you consider the Honda Clarity before your Prius Prime?

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Skapruisprime, Feb 18, 2018.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    They aren't an analysis. GM, and presumably Honda, know the rates at which consumable additives in the oil get used up at various engine speeds, loads, and temperatures. From that data, the oil monitor computer calculates how fast the individual car is using them.

    GM's seems to be pretty accurate on when to call for a change when compared to an actual oil analysis. Which is better than a simple odometer tracker.
     
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Press releases: https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/news_events.html

    Source: U.S. DOE Hydrogen Prize Winner Exports Innovative Small-Scale Hydrogen Refueling Appliance to Japan | Department of Energy

    . . .
    In the spirit of this collaboration, DOE's Fuel Cell Technologies Office is proud to announce that SimpleFuel, winner of the $1 million H2 Refuel H-Prize, is exporting one of the world's first hydrogen refueling appliances to Japan.

    With this first U.S. export of cutting-edge technology innovation to our long-time hydrogen collaborator, Japan, the H-Prize showcases how federal prizes can be used to incentivize American entrepreneurs to accelerate technology advancement. The H2 Refuel H-Prize competition successfully challenged America's innovators to deploy an on-site hydrogen generation system to fuel hydrogen vehicles, which can be used in homes, community centers, small businesses, or similar locations. SimpleFuel's home scale refueling appliance can provide a 1-kilogram fill to vehicles in 15 minutes or less at 700 bar using hydrogen produced via electrolysis, with a cost-effective design that minimizes setback distances and reduces the physical footprint of the system. SimpleFuel is a collaboration of three companies: IVYS Energy Solutions (Massachusetts), McPhy Energy N.A. (Massachusetts), and PDC Machines (Pennsylvania). This approach complements the conventional retail fueling stations currently being funded by states and the private sector.
    . . .

    More technical details: IVYS Simple Fuel Station Offers Homemade Hydrogen For $250,000

    . . .
    Simple Fuel station as an easy, relatively affordable (if you’re a fleet operator, any way) box that can pump compressed hydrogen fuel into your vehicle while only needing a power source, a water inlet, and a vent mast exhaust pipe. If you’ve got those things – and the $250,000-$300,000 that a Simple Fuel station costs, depending on options – you’re good to go.

    IVYS President and CEO Darryl Pollica told InsideEVs at the MovinOn sustainable mobility conference in Montreal today that the Simple Fuel station is better for fleet use than a commercial retailer. That’s because the biggest capacity station can only make – through electrolysis – 10 kilograms of 700-bar H2 a day. That’s enough for a lot of hydrogen forklifts, but only around two hydrogen-powered passenger cars. The Honda Clarity, for example, needs 5.46 kg for a full tank.
    . . .
    To figure out how much time it takes to produce a kg of hydrogen, you can just do simple math. So, for the machine that makes 10 kilograms of hydrogen a day (all of these numbers will be based on the top-of-the-line, 700-bar, 10-kg unit, the SF-70-10), it takes 2.4 hours to make one kilogram of H2. That kilogram requires a total of 68.4 kWh of electricity to make. About 55 kWh are needed to electrolyze the water, and the rest is used for compression and operating features. Lastly, a kilogram of hydrogen needs just under a gallon of water (3.8 gallons, or 14.4 liters). And that’s RO standard (reverse osmosis) water in this case.

    So that would require $6.84 of electricity in Huntsville AL, $0.10/kWh, to make one kg of compressed hydrogen. That would fully charge our Prius Prime 10.7 times, ~267 miles, and our BMW i3-REx 3.75 times, ~270 miles. In the Honda Clarity fuel cell vehicle, 1 kg provides ~67 miles of range.

    Both of our cars have gas engines so to go 67 miles:
    • BMW i3-REx - (67 / 40) * $2.75 (premium) ~= $4.60
    • Prius Prime - (67 / 56) * $2.50 (regular) ~= $2.99
    • Honda Clarity fuel cell vehicle $6.84
    Even gasoline is cheaper than hydrogen generated from a home unit fed into a Honda Clarity fuel cell. So the capital cost:
    Code:
    $300,000 - list price for home hydrogen generator
    $ 60,000 - list price for Honda Clarity fuel cell vehicle
    $360,000 - total capital cost
    
    That $360,000 would buy: +10 new Prius Primes; +7 new BMW i3-REx, or; +18 used BMW i3-REx (eBay prices.)

    With a Honda Clarity FCV, you get less but you can't pay more.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  3. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

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    I don't see the post that you are replying to, was it in another thread?
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Another forum so I fixed it up to work here. Like I'd posted earlier, my patience with folks advocating other cars is growing thin. I had briefly thought about 'Fred's House of Pancakes' or 'Other cars' but the title of this thread begged the post.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #44 bwilson4web, Apr 9, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
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  5. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

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    Is someone claiming that it is economically feasible to produce hydrogen at home? I would be surprised anyone is suggesting that.

    The Clarity FCEV can only be leased (not purchased) by customers who live in specific areas of California which contain hydrogen fuel stations. Honda pays for all hydrogen fuel used during the three year lease, with a 20,000 per year mileage allowance. The lease is $370 a month.

    I have no idea how much hydrogen costs if you had to pay for it yourself, but I'm guessing it's not cheap and few if any would own a hydrogen vehicle if they had to pay for the fuel themselves.
     
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  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Living in Huntsville AL I would have to install a home, hydrogen fuel station which turns out, exists (Google it.) So I used their cost and specifications to do the math. The $60,000 Honda Clarity price comes from an LA Times article. Feel free to use the source links.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  7. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    It's probably just a particle detector, so not very effective at all compared to a lab analysis.
     
  8. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

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    I think you meant the EV+HV range is 340 miles. I think it's interesting that Honda decided on a 7 gallon gas tank, as that is unconventional, and a risk from a selling standpoint. Similar to another feature on the Clarity the rear fender skirt, which was designed to work with the air inlet in front of it for aerodynamics. But the rear skirt is the first thing that people notice and dislike about the Clarity when they look at it because it is unconventional for current styling. In the Prime there is the lack of fifth seat (to save weight) and the raised cargo floor (space for the battery) both of which have turned some people away from the Prime who would have bought one otherwise. Risky in each case, arguably the design choices had some logic to them, but they also turn off some buyers.

    In the case of the 7 gallon Clarity fuel tank, we don't for sure but most likely this was done as part of keeping the cabin as roomy as possible, considering that the battery is located under the passenger compartment which presumably limits the amount of space left for a fuel tank. And when you think about it there is some logic to a smaller fuel tank on a PHEV. An even more extreme example is the BMW i3 REx which has a 2.4 gallon fuel tank (software limited to 1.9 gallons in the U.S. for CARB reasons). One of the arguments against PHEV vs. BEV is that most people do most of their driving within the range of BEV's, yet they have to lug a gasoline engine and a tank of gas around all the time just to enable them to take the vehicle once or twice a year on a several hundred mile trip. Of course you need the gas engine even if you just go a few miles past the EV range, but do you really need a full size gas tank? Except for those one or two times a year, you just need enough gas to go beyond the EV range. As an example, and I'll use 40 miles EV range instead of the listed 47 mile EV range for the Clarity. If average daily driving is 60 miles, that means on average you would only drive 20 miles a day on gasoline in a Clarity. Assuming 300 mile HV range, that's 900 miles between fill ups, which is roughly every two weeks. Even the highly efficient Prime, which has an 11 gallon fuel tank, would only go a few more days than that between fill ups since the Prime would be doing about 35 miles a day HV.

    The Prime of course has the advantage on long trips with a 600 mile HV range, compared to about 300 mile HV range for the Clarity. For someone who regularly makes long trips the Prime, or a regular hybrid would probably be a bitter fit. But for someone who only makes a few long trips a year, the trade off for more cabin and/or cargo might be worth it.
     
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  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Not even that. GM tested to consumption rate of a common anti-seize oil additive in their engines under various operating conditions. With that data, the ECM can predict when to change the oil based on how it has been running and the climate.

    I'm with you in regards to hydrogen, and the Clarity BEV has less range than the last Leaf, but both are only available in California, and are lease only.

    What is getting discussed here is the Clarity PHEV that is available nationwide, starting at $33,400. For someone looking for a plug in, but can have only one car, it is the do everything one. It is a mid size sedan that seats 5, has a full size trunk, 47 mile EV range, and 44city/40hwy/42combined MPG. It's only lack is the gas tank size of 7 gallons, which is only an issue for long trips, but still enough to go between most groups bio breaks. Many looking at the Prime will also look at it.
     
  10. MSAGRO

    MSAGRO Active Member

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    ADB7052E-A446-4BFB-8C0C-FB88B0693349.jpeg

    I never considered buying a Honda hybrid because of their dismal track record. The Honda Civic hybrid from 2009 to 2010 had a 31% hybrid battery pack failure rate.

    That was a $4500 replacement/repair cost where most of them were done under warranty. But can you imagine buying a used Honda hybrid without a warranty?

    If any component on a car had a 31% failure rate even if it was something as simple as a radio knob falling off it would be a concern… But to actually have the hybrid battery pack fail at that rate is unforgivable.
     
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  11. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    In retrospect, as a new car purchase, Civic Hybrid was probably bad choice. However, knowing the problem it had, I did purchase 2008 Civic Hybrid back in 2011 as 3 year old used car. It was my first hybrid vehicle ever. At that time the price of equivalent used Prius model was almost $3K higher than HCH. We still own this 2008 HCH (my son drives it now). It had original hybrid battery failed last year at 9 years old and 145K miles on it. But, the cost of replacement was $0. Since we live in CARB state, the hybrid battery was covered by manufactures warranty for 10 yr/150k miles. We were extremely lucky. I switched to 3rd gen Pri and now to Prime since HCH, but this used Civic Hybrid has been by far the least expensive car to operate in my entire car ownership history. I did consider Clarity, but it wasn't available yet, and knowing Honda will never give much incentive on new cars, I did not pursue further for purely economical reason.
     
    #51 Salamander_King, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  12. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    I won't look at a car that gets less than 50MPG and I won't look at a car that isn't a lift-back.
     
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  13. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

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    The fact that the Clarity is a sedan instead of a hatchback reduces the versatility that many are looking for. Many Prius and Prime shoppers already know they want a hatchback and thus are not even looking at hybrid Camry, etc. for that reason. But others are looking at Prime specifically because it is PHEV and hatchback is not a priority for them. However the reality is that sedan sales are diminishing compared to other vehicle types. But although shrinking, the market for sedans still exists and for whatever reason that is the market that Honda is targeting with the Clarity. In theory they could later make a hatchback version, just as Prius Gen 1 was a sedan and Gen 2 forward is liftback.
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It isn't sedan sales that are dropping. It is car sales as people switch back to trucks and SUVs. Buyers want a crossover instead of a hatchback or wagon even though they are practically the same thing. As long as that is what the market wants all cars, including liftbacks, will have lower sales.

    The current PHEVs will likely see their sales drop when the selection of SUV PHEVs increase.

    Those were mild hybrids using NiMH batteries. There have been no reported problems since Honda switched to Li-ion, which was in the last year of that Civic hybrid.

    This did ruin their hybrid reputation. They even had to call the new Civic hybrid the Insight.
     
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  15. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

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    Sedans are dropping faster than hatchbacks, in some cases a few hatchbacks have actually increased slightly. Many car buyers are seeing hatchbacks as a way to get some of the convenience of a crossover or SUV at a more affordable price.
     
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  16. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Righto,
    Only the title of this thread is "Consider XXX before a Prius Prime."

    Shouldn't competitive PHEV's be discussed here in this thread?

    Can there be a better choice than the Prime when you 'Consider' in all the factors in TCO.
    If you want a car that operates as an EV, why not 'Consider' one that is 100% EV until the battery pack is depleted.
    And 'Consider' other engineering factors such as a proper TMS for that battery pack.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Bill, I appreciate your point of view but disagree. The right place to raise this question is ‘Other cars’ where those who have an interest in non-Prime cars are free, even encouraged to discuss comparative products.

    We are still learning new things about the cars we paid $25-35,000 dollars. Yet here comes another, one step removed from a SPAMMER advocating a different ride as if we were too ignorant to make their chive. We already played that game with the Ioniq and Volt advocates.

    So I am going to have fun with them. Perhaps a little humor will work where common sense and respect is missing.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  18. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Bob, I appreciate your point of view but disagree.
    The OP of THIS thread was asking to consider something other than the Prime, correct?
    I am telling him to consider shopping around and doing the research.

    (I'm not sure what the rest of your post is trying to say...)
     
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    actually, the title is 'did you consider the honda clarity, before your prius prime'. unless i have lost the ability to read.
     
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  20. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    actually, you are correct.
    This thread should discuss ONLY the two PHEV's in the title, with no mention of any other PHEV.
    I stand corrected and should be banned for broadening this discussion.
    Sorry OP for this.
     
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