Did you consider the Honda Clarity before your Prius Prime?

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Skapruisprime, Feb 18, 2018.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    85,467
    37,678
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    now i never said that.:)
     
    HPrimeAdvanced likes this.
  2. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,256
    422
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    someone said this,,,,,, I think......
     
  3. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2017
    652
    494
    0
    Location:
    Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Sure you can. That very pure water did not come out of the tap.

    I find it interesting to note that the refueling speed is about the same as a Tesla Supercharger. So much for hydrogen's great advantage over EVs, at least using this setup.
     
    HPrimeAdvanced likes this.
  4. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,917
    3,544
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    We have a hydrogen refueling station at work. Takes about 5 minutes to put in 250 miles of range to an SUV.
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    14,633
    6,468
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Does make the hydrogen, or just supplied with it?
    How many cars can it handle in a day?
     
  6. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,917
    3,544
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Makes it.

    I think it makes something like 1kg per hour, up to 24 hours per day, and I think it can store about 66kg. Remember, energy wise, 1kg H2 is about the same as 1 gallon of gasoline. However, the cars get something like 75 miles/kg IIRC.
     
  7. Roy2001

    Roy2001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    369
    152
    0
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Premium
    How much is a gallon of H2?
     
  8. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,917
    3,544
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Heavily depends on temperature and pressure.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    23,002
    12,874
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL with 2014 BMW i3-REx
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Could you share a photo of the external data plate showing make model and electrical metrics?

    Thanks,
    Bob Wilson
     
  10. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,917
    3,544
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
  11. Roy2001

    Roy2001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    369
    152
    0
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Premium
    Sorry I mean how much they charge to fill the tank :)
     
  12. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,917
    3,544
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    It's a research facility that we own.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    14,633
    6,468
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Yeah, a kilogram of hydrogen is close enough to that in a gallon of gasoline to hand wave them as the same. That value doesn't take in to account the energy to compress and chill the hydrogen for vehicle fueling, nor the extra energy needed to make it over that of gasoline. That energy spent is why more vehicle miles can be had per plug in car charged with renewable energy versus using hydrogen for fuel.
    Impressive considering that the Clarity FCEV gets 67mpge combined and the Tucson FCEV gets 49mpge.

    Hydrogen advocates like to say filling a hydrogen car is like filling a gasoline one, but transferring high pressure gases isn't like pumping liquids. Filling a hydrogen car to 700 bar/10k psi requires the fill tank to be a higher pressure. It also needs to have chilled the hydrogen, because hydrogen is weird in that it heats up while it expands. If that fill tank in low in pressure and/or the hydrogen not chilled, filling a car will take longer.

    Hydrogen stations need to be overbuilt at higher cast to handle refueling traffic close to that of a gas station, and even then it never can match one. Otherwise, people with hydrogen cars will need to be prepared to wait around to fill the tank like with charging a car.
     
  14. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,917
    3,544
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Same with BEV chargers, but to a far higher degree. A single fuel wand at a gas station is something like 5 megawatts equivalent, making my local Costco 60MW equivalent. My local substation is 80MVA. Imagine a substation and dual-circuit 115kV transmission line to every gas station.
     
  15. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    936
    1,091
    0
    Location:
    Duluth, GA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Hydrogen is sold by weight not by volume, so it's sort of hard to compare prices since hydrogen is a gas and gasoline is a liquid. One clue is that Honda pays up to $15,000 for hydrogen used in the three-year lease, which I think gives you an idea. I read one article that says for the Clarity FCEV that would buy enough Hydrogen for about 50,000 miles, which works out to thirty cents per mile. Whereas the Clarity PHEV would be about six cents per mile at current gas prices, even less when you factor in plug-in usage.

    The bottom line is that the Clarity FCEV, Mirai and Tucson FCEV are experiments, nothing more, nothing less. Some people in California have chosen to participate in the experiment, which is certainly fine. But it's not really part of any realistic discussion about current car buying choices, even for someone who lives in those areas of California. And it won't be for many, many years, if ever.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    14,633
    6,468
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    "Hydrogen fuel prices range from $12.85 to more than $16 per kilogram (kg), but the most common price is $13.99 per kg (equivalent on a price per energy basis to $5.60 per gallon of gasoline)" - Cost to refill | California Fuel Cell Partnership

    The data that statement was based on is dated, but I think getting under $10 a kilogram would have been big enough news to be heard here. Also note, that California's hydrogen isn't 100% renewable, but is mostly made from natural gas, which costs less.

    I see fuel cells having a future if switched to a liquid fuel. The FCEV car Nissan plans to have out by the Tokyo Olympics uses ethanol. Even then, there chance to succeed is more likely when used as a range extender to a plug in.

    There is a big difference. The majority of a plug in car's charging will take place at home, or perhaps work place, at a slow rate. Leaving such large installations of DC quick chargers to only being needed along major travel routes. For hydrogen to work, refueling stations need to be as common as gas stations are now.

    Then people getting plug ins know that time is a factor when charging. So do those building those large charging stations. They will become mini destinations including food and entertainment. The stations might pop up around things like South of Border and the world's largest ball of twine. In many jurisdictions, when a person filling their hydrogen car has to wait for 15 minutes, they'll have to do so at their car.

    We'd be better off putting our resources into making renewable diesel and gasoline than hydrogen for vehicles that can't wait for a charge. The distribution infrastructure is already in place for them. Same for even natural gas.

    What FCEV SUV is at your research facility?
     
  17. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,917
    3,544
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    That's why all H2 cars should be plug in hybrids.
     
  18. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2017
    652
    494
    0
    Location:
    Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    What's another $10-50k if the non-plug-in starts at $200k ?
     
  19. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,917
    3,544
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    If it were a plug in, the fuel cell system could be 1/10th the size. And I'm not suggesting home H2 generation, just like I don't recommend installing a supercharger at home.
     
  20. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2017
    652
    494
    0
    Location:
    Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Oh .. a hobbled EV with a Rex.

    Lovely
     
Loading...