Did you know -- We're being recorded in our Prius....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil\";p=\"70242)</div>

DITTO!

Having developed the code for some of these so called black boxes, I can tell you the insurance companies had nothing to do with this. Rather, the information collected is generally for two purposes: first to collect data for use by a service technician for problem diagnosis, second to record the event to prove proper operation. For the latter, the main protection offered is for the vehicle manufacturer in cases where an estate or family sues for malfunction. In all court cases I have seen to date, access to the data is only available when the owner of the vehicle, or the estate, authorizes access to and removal of the data. The data is considered personal property of the vehicle owner. In court, if the owner or his/her estate refuses to allow access, either their burden of proof is increased or they can be ordered to allow access to support the other party's case. In any event, what is being alleged is more fantasy than reality. Can I tell you what happened during an accident? Yes, but with limitations. I can only tell you what the sensors I read tell me, so if they are faulty I have limitations. Can I reconstruct an accident? No, but I can tell you, again with limitations, the sequence of events as they occurred until the vehicle stopped. This subject continues to be highly exaggerated. You have nothing to worry about until you are in an accident, and only then if you or the other party sue. At that point, "the truth may set you free."

 

Mark,
Do you know how long the information is stored for before it is overwritten? I ask because aircraft flight data recorders generally have about 25 hours, and cockpit voice recorders only have about 30 minutes before the tape loop is complete. Even if the EDR uses a hard drive, it will still have to overwrite at some point.

Secondly, is it calibrated/correlated during routine maintenance (like the FDRs) to ensure accuracy?

 

The Black Box in our Prius isn't constantly recording data like an aviation CVR/FDR. Those have to due to FAA regulations.

At the moment of impact, it records things like accelerator input, brake input, ABS cycle, sensor from driver and passenger weight detector, seatbelt detector, etc. It uses a buffer so the data won't be lost at the actual time of impact.

Since it only has to work at impact, the memory requirements are much less. It also doesn't have to be certified to harsh impact, fire, or submersion like an aviation black box.

 

I thought it has a few seconds of data prior to the accident. This wasn't Prius specific, but a comment when this topic came up in the local press a couple of years ago.

 

i believe that there is about 20 seconds of data that is constantly being rewritten so in the event of a crash, that much data would be captured beforehand.

this was the published amount in an insurance report that i read just under a year ago and its not Prius specific. i will say that more of these recorders are out there than manufacturers are willing to admit to.

 

That's what the buffer is for. You capture inputs like ABS, seatbelts, airbags, foot on brake or gas, etc before power is lost to the recorder.

 

OK interesting. The way I was imagining its operation is the way an FDR works, which is to constantly record on a loop that is stopped by the occurrence of an accident, so there will be data on the events leading up to the crash. If the EDR is triggered by the airbags (rather than stopped by them), that's a whole different thing.

There were a few issues pilots had with the implementation of data and voice recorders:
- Would the information be used against them in court?
- Would the company use the information to check the job performance of the pilots?
- Would the company use the information to spy on the employees? (seems paranoid, but it has happened)
- Would the voice recordings be released to the media? (the original answer was an emphatic 'no', but now they routinely are)

The reason(s) I'm curious about the EDR are sort of the same:
- Could the info be used against you in court?
- Could the info be used by Toyota to dispute a warrantee claim, and if so what is done to ensure accurate data?
- Would the data be used to study/observe people's driving habits?
- Would the info be downloaded and kept by the dealer, so at trade-in time it would be, " well, we've got to knock $1000 off for this, and $500 for that...etc."

Of course if it just records 20 seconds, these points are moot - except the use in court.

 

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Only with a functin to remember particular events, like top speed since last data dump, etc. Prius doesn't (appear to) have this capability. Some rental cars do.
4) Ditto 3.

There are OBD connector boxes that DO record info like #3 and 4 require. Teen-Tattle, or some such trade name comes to mind.

 

"2) Yes
3) Only with a functin to remember particular events, like top speed since last data dump, etc. Prius doesn't (appear to) have this capability. Some rental cars do.
4) Ditto 3."

Yeah, I knew about the aftermarket "tattle" devices, that's why I was wondering about points 2-4. The last time I rented a car, it had an onboard monitor of some sort. When I returned it, the check-in guy showed me the the info he got on his scan tool, which included data about how the car was driven.

 

As far as the aviation CVR/FDR, after a crash or incident, in particular the CVR playback requires a representative from the ALPA (Air Line Pilot Association) to be present.

Some airlines do record many thousands of aircraft parameters during routine operation for maintenance planning. As an example, British Airways uses QIC or 8mm tape to record these parameters, though the recorder isn't crash-hardened.

That was how the mystery of the two Boeing 737 crashes here were finally resolved. The servo actuator on the Boeing 737 rudder can, under certain situations, suddenly reverse and lock. A similar servo is used on Boeing 747-400 elevator actuators.

During a scary takeoff from London, a British Airways 747-400 experienced an elevator reversal and pitched nose-down, but the flight crew was able to recover. Upon playback of the detail data tape, it was clear the elevator servo reversed all by itself.

So routine monitoring of parameters is a good maintenance tool and also can save lives. Only if the real-world data is applied though.

Requests for CVR/FDR in locomotive engines have been strongly resisted by unions that represent the locomotive crews. When you hear of derailments and crashes caused by crews who are intoxicated, I can see why.

The use of data loggers in rental cars is another good idea, at least for the rental company. It covers their a** and they can prove if you were speeding or driving recklessly.

As far as the application of this technology in mainstream automotive applications, the question isn't "if" but "when."

 

In the "hidden screens" I remember seeing some button to "reset data" , or something like that. Would this dump the memory of the EDR?

 

lets look at these recorders for what they are.

they are paid for by the insurance industry as they are looking the cost standpoint depending on the information gathered.

will it be cost effective for them to lobby congress to have this information available in accident claim settlements? they do have a figure of what it would cost to get congress to agree to this.

that is why they are doing this. they are seeing if this will reduce THEIR cost of doing business. the current model is showing signs of wear. they can no longer raise rates for high risk drivers to subsidize the rest.
accident payouts are rising faster than premiums are causing a large inconsistancy with many drivers who drive responsibily, have had no tickets or accidents, but still pay triple the cost of an older married driver who has had accidents but whose rate is lower simply because they have been a customer for a longer period of time and they are in a demographic that says they most likely will not get into another accident.

ask any single male driver under the age of 25 what im talking about, they will verify this information. my parents have 2 cars full coverage, 100$ deductible. both are covered for a full year for less than half of what it costs me for simple liability.

they have had 3-4 minor accidents in the past 10 years and none of that seems to raise their rates. i had a ticket for driving on a suspended 4 years ago (my license was suspended for non-payment of child support) and that doubled my rates.

so now you see that the insurance industry is heading for implosion if they dont change something and drastically.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(200Volts\";p=\"70899)</div>

That's to erase errors on the AVC network.
I had to clear some AVC errors when I came across this screen, and didn't get any to return.

I think the NAV also has an option to back up its data for situations like replacing the NAV ECU. The nav data options are not enabled on mine, either the THHT is needed, or it is disabled in the US marketed cars.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA\";p=\"70907)</div>

First off, you shouldn't have driven with a suspended license.
Would be nice if there was a different class of suspension for reasons other than driving habits, but there isn't. Also, you were flagged for the ticket, so the ticket code would need to reflect that too. As stated, that ticket is a very serious offense, even if your circumstances warranted a less serious violation, or classified as a non-moving violation.

Second, insurance costs are not only rising because of more accidents, but because of cost of repair. I had a simple rear-ender in August, and didn't expect my car to get totalled, but it did. Repair cost was over $4K because he hit my car just right, that the rear rail buckled. His camry got a barely noticable scratch. I have never seen something like that cost so much.
As an aside, I got screwed on that one, as his insurance payout didn't cover what I still owed on my credit card to finance the car, and there was nothing I could have done to avoid the accident.

 

"they are paid for by the insurance industry"

Really? I didn't notice a credit on my loan application...

Speaking of cost of repair, I'd have gladly sacrificed a fractional MPG loss to expend the bumpers a few inches... it won't take much to do some awesomely expensive damage to these cars...

 

As far as the issue of the cost of insurance repair, keep in mind that cars now are - as a general rule - far safer than cars of even 10 years ago.

You can thank airbags and ABS to a certain extent. The biggest advance has been in very advanced unit body construction and the materials used in crumple zones.

Even a fairly "minor" accident and the unit body is twisted out of spec. It will *never* drive properly after that, unless the entire car is stripped down to the unit body, placed on a sophisticated jig, and carefully put back into position.

A lot of crumple parts that used to be repairable now have to be cut off and thrown away. Doing all that takes a lot of time and labor, and that bills by the hour.

If it helps me walk away after a drunk driver t-bones me at an intersection, I suppose to h*** with the insurance cost then.

 

I asked DanMan32 offline about the location of where data was physically stored. Here is his feedback. Thanks DanMan32, I'll post it here in the future.
200Volts

And I think I will repeat my answer. I don't know of any EDR, nor did I ever state I did. The car does store freezeframe data during a DTC, probably in various ECUs responsible for the associated DTC that triggered the freezeframe. Engine freezeframe stored in ECM, HV freezeframe (where the heart of control is) in HV ecu, battery conditions stored in HV Battery ECU, airbag deployment in airbag ECU, braking conditions in skid ECU, etc.

If there ever is a true EDR, it would probably be the airbag ECU.

I would rather this be posted on the appropriate topic so all can benefit from the discussion.
DanMan32

 

After reading through this thread I still am confused about what kind of data is recorded and how long it is stored. I can understand about recording info during an accident or during a malfunction. I also think that the owner should own that information and can control who has access to it. (I think we do here in calfornia... right?)

So what I'm wondering.... does the car record how fast I drive (so I can get a ticket in the mail from the police someday if that find my stored driving history)?

Does the car record when I do and when I don't get it maintained? If I go 500miles over my limit for an oil change can that invalidate my Toyota warranty if I have an engine malfunction?

These black boxes should not be secrets. If they are in cars and they record us we should know about it. It should be clear in the manual (what it records and when).

I don't think we should have to give up part of our privacy so corporations can possibly use the information against us. Especially without us even knowing it!

hopefully someone can tell me how deep the rabbit hole really is.

Peter B

 

Read this:

9951. (a) A manufacturer of a new motor vehicle sold or leased in
this state that is equipped with one or more recording devices
commonly referred to as "event data recorders (EDR)" or "sensing and
diagnostic modules (SDM)," shall disclose that fact in the owner's
manual for the vehicle.
(B) As used in this section, "recording device" means a device
that is installed by the manufacturer of the vehicle and does one or
more of the following, for the purpose of retrieving data after an
accident:
(1) Records how fast and in which direction the motor vehicle is
traveling.
(2) Records a history of where the motor vehicle travels.
(3) Records steering performance.
(4) Records brake performance, including, but not limited to,
whether brakes were applied before an accident.
(5) Records the driver's seatbelt status.
(6) Has the ability to transmit information concerning an accident
in which the motor vehicle has been involved to a central
communications system when an accident occurs.
© Data described in subdivision (B) that is recorded on a
recording device may not be downloaded or otherwise retrieved by a
person other than the registered owner of the motor vehicle, except
under one of the following circumstances:
(1) The registered owner of the motor vehicle consents to the
retrieval of the information.
(2) In response to an order of a court having jurisdiction to
issue the order.
(3) For the purpose of improving motor vehicle safety, including
for medical research of the human body's reaction to motor vehicle
accidents, and the identity of the registered owner or driver is not
disclosed in connection with that retrieved data. The disclosure of
the vehicle identification number (VIN) for the purpose of improving
vehicle safety, including for medical research of the human body's
reaction to motor vehicle accidents, does not constitute the
disclosure of the identity of the registered owner or driver.
(4) The data is retrieved by a licensed new motor vehicle dealer,
or by an automotive technician as defined in Section 9880.1 of the
Business and Professions Code, for the purpose of diagnosing,
servicing, or repairing the motor vehicle.
(d) A person authorized to download or otherwise retrieve data
from a recording device pursuant to paragraph (3) of subdivision ©,
may not release that data, except to share the data among the motor
vehicle safety and medical research communities to advance motor
vehicle safety, and only if the identity of the registered owner or
driver is not disclosed.
(e) (1) If a motor vehicle is equipped with a recording device
that is capable of recording or transmitting information as described
in paragraph (2) or (6) of subdivision (B) and that capability is
part of a subscription service, the fact that the information may be
recorded or transmitted shall be disclosed in the subscription
service agreement.
(2) Subdivision © does not apply to subscription services
meeting the requirements of paragraph (1).
(f) This section applies to all motor vehicles manufactured on or
after July 1, 2004.

California Vehicle Code

 

Wow this is a long topic. After reading it all, I have come to the conclusion that(as with almost everything else) if you have nothing to hide, then you will have nothing to lose.

HOWEVER, there MUST be a line drawn somewhere regarding where these devices are an invasion of privacy.

Things to think about:

1. Would a device similar to this be appropriate for use in new houses to reduce the instances of domestic violence?
2. Should it be leagally possible to opt out of having these items installed on your car?
3. What if disabling these devices became illegal?