Diesel Auris beats hybrid Auris

Discussion in 'Diesels' started by Troy Heagy, Mar 25, 2014.

  1. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    FWIW here is a link to the results of some research I did on the 3008 diesel hybrid the last time it came up:
    Non-hybrid cars that give Good Fuel Economy (highway) | Page 6 | PriusChat

    From what I could tell it looks great on paper, but seems kind of disappointing in reality. When tested by the US DOE on US driving cycles the 3008 hybrid falls well short of the Prius, even when you take into account the noted under performance of diesels on the US cycles. Granted, its quicker too.

    I would call it more than "slightly" more expensive though. From what I could find published the 3008 diesel hybrid is 8k pounds more than the base diesel, and 6k pounds more than the base Prius in the UK. The high price seemed to be the main criticism in reviews, along with disappointing actual observed fuel economy relative to the standard diesel version.
    Peugeot 3008 review - mpg | Autocar

    Granted, I have no idea what the relative bias is of these reviews, and have yet to find much information from actual owners. The few I've seen seem happy with its comfort and power, and are reporting around 50mpg Imp at least in summer.

    Rob
     
  2. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    There are just as many on here who don't want to hear anything positive about other manufacturers, which is very short sighted and blinkered.
     
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  3. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    I am not opposed to it at all. If someone built a diesel hybrid that was more efficient than the Prius, as clean as the Prius, as reliable as the Prius, and offered at a similar or better cost with similar features and capabilities, that would be great. So far I've yet to see any decent evidence that this is achievable, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

    I am pretty much technology/brand agnostic, I just want the cleanest, most efficient vehicle I can afford that meets my daily needs. So far the Prius has been the product that best satisfied those requirements. I hope to move up to a plug-in hybrid when it finally comes time to replace my '05, which will once again raise the bar of expectations. If the current tax credits persist, I'd have to seriously consider a Volt although the 4 seats would be a challenge for our family of 5.

    Rob
     
  4. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    I'm refering to the hybrid diesel Peugeot - the link I provided gave the prices. And I'd call £24,845 to £27,245 (Peugeot) slightly more expensive than £21,845 to £25,145 (Prius exc plug in at £28,245). The diesel non hybrids start at £16,645 for almost as good as the Prius economy.

    You get more kit, you get more power, you get more official economy (and let's face it, that's the one everyone quotes).

    You don't get as good a warranty. But it is an alternative and shows that there are options out there that give equal economy.
     
  5. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    But is it "skewing of data" to point out that EPA has lower lifetime average emissions factors in general for modern diesel passenger cars than for gasoline passenger cars (except for NOx), and that EPA has lower upstream ("well-to-pump") emission factors for ULSD fuel relative to gasoline as well?
     
  6. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The other One Percenter.....

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    ^ It may very well be, depending on which "sources" you use and how many caveats (like...almost...except for....including....excluding.....for this model.....) you have to employ.

    Very Low displacement diesels may yet supplant Very Low displacement gasoline engines for cars, but I'm skeptical considering some of the work that's being done with alcohol injection and directly injected, ignition-less gas engines.

    And then there is the $$$$$.
    How much is diesel?
    How much is gas?

    I love a good debate, but let's HAVE the debate.
    Hold the caveats, please. :)
     
  7. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    That's the reason I used EPA as the data source. No caveats, no exclusions, just the average lifetime emission factors of all modern gasoline and diesel passenger cars.

    I'm not debating the economics of diesel engine technology in small passenger cars. Keep in mind though that gasoline will be required to be "ultra low sulfur" starting in 2017, and I don't think anyone has a good handle of what that will do to the price of gasoline.
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    HCCI engines, like Hyundai's, have been in the lab for years. GM's new family of small engines had a demonstrator running HCCI. It is kinda the holy grail of gasoline ICEs. Perhaps we are close to getting a commercial one. Maybe part of the reason for changing of fuel blends for Tier 3 is for HCCI. Apparently fuel quality is more important to those engines.

    In the US, diesels are held up to the same emission standards as petrols. Many of the current diesel cars have emission ratings better than the minimum for both, and they could be even better. Around 2005, Ford had a car and Mercury SUV diesel hybrid concept. They met PZEV back then. Carbon dioxide emissions is purely dictated by carbon content of the fuel and the car's fuel economy.

    Since gasoline hybrids rely on the motor for high acceleration, there isn't any reason to suspect a diesel one of being slower. Atkinsonized engines aren't power houses.
     
  9. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    Well, then we should call them out too.
     
  10. Mike Dimmick

    Mike Dimmick Active Member

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    The diesels require a Diesel Particulate Filter, which requires you to periodically drive on motorways to burn off the accumulated particulate. (The manuals call this 'regenerating' the filter.) I hired a VW Crafter van to move house last year, and got a five-minute lecture from the hire centre of 'if you see this light come on, this is what you do'.

    Urea injection reduces the amount of NOx produced by a diesel. It has no effect on the production of particulates. Even in Euro 6, diesels are allowed to emit more NOx than a petrol car, though petrol cars are allowed to emit more carbon monoxide and unburnt fuel. (Diesels tend to run leaner and hotter, therefore produce more NOx, while petrol cars run richer and cooler, meaning incomplete combustion - more CO and HC.)

    Direct injection petrol cars have the same particulate limit as diesels.
     
  11. Mike Dimmick

    Mike Dimmick Active Member

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    They're low, but they're not zero. I've just bought a UK model Auris Hybrid Icon (15" wheels), here are the figures:

    NOx: 6 mg/km (Euro 6 limit: 60 mg/km)
    CO: 124 mg/km (Euro 6 limit: 1000 mg/km)
    HC: 18 mg/km (Euro 6 limit: 100 mg/km)
    Particulate: not applicable (test not required for indirect injection petrol cars).

    Source: Gov.UK Car Fuel Data

    I suspect that since these figures are so far below the limits, Toyota have not spent any effort optimising them. You can guarantee that they optimised the vehicle's runs on the dyno for the lowest CO2 and highest fuel economy ratings they could manage without outright cheating. I remember that when the Gen 3 Prius came out, the reported CO and HC ratings actually went up from the Gen 2, but this probably wasn't significant (also, the Gen 2 was tested to Euro 4 rather than Euro 5 test method).

    I do wonder how much real-world difference there is between the Auris Hybrid Icon hatchback as originally released in 2012 (87g/km CO2), and the 'aero tweak' that they performed in mid-2013 (84g/km). It's possible this was just an excuse to register a new, better test result!
     
  12. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    You're wrong. You're quoting Euro 5 figures.

    Euro 6 diesel is virtually the same as Euro 6 petrol.

    Nox limits for Euro 5 petrol 0.06 mg/km, Euro 6 petrol 0.06 mg/km. My 2009 Prius is 0.06 mg/km.
    Nox limits for Euro 5 diesel 0.18 mg/km, Euro 6 diesel 0.08 mg/km.

    So the benefit of Euro 6 over Euro 5 on petrol is pretty much nothing.

    BUT the benefit of Euro 6 over Euro 5 on DIESEL is significant reduction on NOx, virtually matching petrol.
    European emission standards - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  13. seftonm

    seftonm Member

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    By using urea, the engine can be run in a more efficient way because NOx is removed after it leaves the engine rather than trying to reduce it in the combustion chamber. Running the engine this way helps reduce particulates.
     
  14. Alesf76

    Alesf76 Member

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    Really curious, I found "my" numbers on the official registration certificate of my Auris HSD MY2013 with 15" and aereo tweak I bought it in Italy. Shouldn't be the tests the same in all the EU? I don't think that driving right handed pollutes less :)

    I think so too, but it's difficult to make a real world comparision, the declared difference after the areo tweak is really small. Using different tire models can make more difference than that.
     
  15. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Always good form to provide a link when 'proving' facts. I gave the wiki link that also gives links to where they gain the info from.

    I wasn't saying your Auris limits where wrong. I was saying what you were comparing it to were. But whatever. The links I quoted show the facts. Euro 6 diesel emissions are virtually equal to petrol. A new Euro 6 diesel will emit pretty much the same NOx as a hybrid. Euro 5 diesel didn't, but Euro 6 does.
     
  16. Alesf76

    Alesf76 Member

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    Euro 6 maximum diesel emissions are virtually equal to maximum petrol emissions. That's sure.
    But hybrid numbers are well below Euro 6. I searched on that site for latest diesels, and I was unable to find any with a NOx rating with just one digit like hybrids. Could you point to one ?
     
  17. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    As Euro 6 only applies to new diesel models released in 2014 and all cars in 2015, you're right, they are few and far between.

    Try this though;

    http://www.peugeot.co.uk/media/peugeot-308-prices-and-specifications-brochure.pdf page 8. Though it doesn't give the levels of NOx, just that some of the engines comply with Euro 6.

    So are diesels still smelly and horrible? Yes. Will they improve significantly in years to come? Yes. If you live in a richer area, then new company cars will be be compliant quicker and help your local air. If not, then you have years to wait.

    But we both have clearer consciences as we both drive some of the cleanest cars available in Europe. If other cars, including diesels become cleaner too, then that's a good thing.
     
  18. Hybrid Dave

    Hybrid Dave Member

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    Having your car emit the faint smell of greasy tacos and French fries should be a selling feature. People complain about not being able to hear a hybrid car coming. At least they can smell a diesel car coming..
     
  19. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Could smell a diesel car coming. Certainly can smell a diesel car coming when they use or should it be re-use cooking oil as fuel.

    Using a modern (it's not 1983 anymore) diesel with the latest emission control systems means you can't smell a diesel car.

    But nobody on here wants to know facts unless it's about a Prius, so I'll stop wasting my breath (y)
     
  20. Hybrid Dave

    Hybrid Dave Member

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    I've sold diesel trucks all the way up to 2011 and I see a lot of new diesel cars around and I can still smell that it is a diesel. Europe could be far ahead of the USA since diesel is much more accepted there. Here, diesels are still a lot more expensive, the fuel is more expensive, not every station sells it and they still make more noise and have a weird after smell.
     
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