Diesel-Hybrid rumors

And might cost over $50,000. I had a series of German cars that ended with a Merc C320 that fell apart in 4 years. The front two door pulls broke in half and the alternator quit at about 30,000 miles. I wonder if the Audi uses too many VW sourced parts or Bosh electrical parts.

 

New details emerge on Audi's range-topping supercar

lol. This looks like it will cost at least $300K, probably much more. The R8 is over $100K.

 

I know cars in the US are relatively cheap, but that would be a steal Thanks for setting that straight.
I once sat in an impounded R8 and it fit like a glove . But I didn't bid on it as the special car tax alone would have been more than 50k... (It had a foreign licenseplate, hence I'd need to pay this (42% of estimated net worth regardless of biddingprice) and state-tax (19%) before being able to drive it).

There have been several diesel hybrids for sale here (Netherlands).
Mind you, the few that are on (the equivalent of) Fuelly, are beyond horrible in regards to fuelefficiency.

Manufacturers specs according to internet: 3.7-3.9l/100km (60-63 mpgUS)
Average spritmonitor: 39mpg (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

I guess Ford hybrids are 'spot on' compared to this thing...

 

Europe's test cycle is not even good enough for comparison between cars, we by now all know that it's almost impossible to beat it in any new car.
But to be fair there is also a limousine version of Peugeot hybrid4, that gets 5.4 l/100 km (43 MPG) in real life and delivers 200 HP and four wheel drive. Compare that to Camry hybrid that get 6.1 l/100 km (38 MPG) on Fuelly.

But when you compare diesel and petrol you must multiply petrol by 0.89 (roughly) to get diesel eqvivalent in energy and CO2 terms. What we see is that Camry and Peugeot are spot on the same consumption.

Compare a normal (fuel efficient turbo) petrol car to diesel and you get similar results:
- VW Passat TDI: 6.13 l/100 km (38 MPG)
- VW Passat TSI: 7.15 l/100 km (33 MPG)

Again efficiency in real world driving is very close, when you convert volume of fuel to energy value or CO2. Passat TSI is 2,000 € cheaper, so there is money to improve it even further, but obviously VW won't do it, because Diesel is a cheaper fuel, even if it's priced the same as petrol in liters it's still cheaper per energy content.

 

Prius is NEDC rated 3,8l/100 by memory...

I bet many of us can beat that regularly...it does not mean always...but we can (Obama style!)...

 

That's why I wrote almost

I didn't beat it on the whole tank of gas, yet, but I did a run last week where I got 3.1 l/100 km on 80 km same start and finish point, including warm up. Now I'm on 3.5 from that minimum, will se for how long.

What I wanted to say in the other post is, that Diesel efficiency is a myth, in real world driving, I think with EURO6 emissions control it will get even worse.

 

Perfect car to upgrade to after Prius...

But only if they fix that roof scoop.

 

A diesel hybrid available right now in the US. Hino 195H Hybrid Truck - YouTube

 

Euro 6 gets part of the way to EPA diesel standards and as such will not really hurt fuel economy. What it does do is make the system more expensive, and requires urea for SCR and system for cleaning system for a dpf. That makes the trade off for diesel worse, meaning more up front costs and maintenance money.

Audi is part of the VW group, and VW has already weighed in that for non-supercars, the diesel trade off in a hybrid doesn't make much sense. Diesels give you better low load fuel economy and high torque. Unfortunately these are exactly the strengths of adding an electric motor and battery, so the additional cost of diesel does not make much sense when we are talking sub 40,000 euro hybrids. An audi(vw) diesel engine is about 10% more thermally efficient than a toyota atkinson engine, and if you are in a hybrid you should be able to keep both close to their sweat spot. But the diesel engine is heavier and more expensive, as well as requireing urea to make euro 6. It just doesn't make sense. That is why vw made the jetta hybrid gasoline, and the golf phev is gasoline as well.

The VW group has announced two hybrid supercars already. The first one the porsche 918 should see production this year. They have chosen a normally aspirated gasoline 4.6L V8 engine that with cylinder deactivation to act like a 2.3L four cylinder most of the time. There is a 200 kw, 6.8 kwh plug-in battery that can drive front and/or rear motors, bring a total of 795 hp, and a european rating of 3L/100 km. The batteries won't drive the front motor over 146 mph though, so if you are racing you may be stuck with 2wd on the straight ways.
2014 Porsche 918 Spyder - Top Speed

The second super car, is mainly super as in exotic and fuel efficient, it is the slow XL1, and is a diesel. The XL1 phev claims a european rating of 0.9L/100 km. The 2 cylinder diesel will be over $100K and is carbon fiber. At that price the added cost of diesel doesn't matter.

That leaves us on why the VW group would build a third hybrid supercar. That can be answered quite simply by looking at the 918. Most of the engineering was done on the race car and the porsche to get a R10 hybrid into production. The 918 has already sold out its profitable production run of 918 units at over $800K each, and porsche is holding down payments of $200K for each car even though it hasn't started production. I doubt the R10 will be a better hybrid than the 918, but audi can make different trade offs than porsche. In the grand scheme of things that extra cost of diesel doesn't make much difference at these price levels.

 

Let me put some restrictions on my opinion on diesel hybrid....

Diesel hybrids don't make much sense on cars costing less than $50K. Diesels and hybrids definitely make sense on heavy duty trucks or engineering exercises like the the XL1. Changing the atkinson to a diesel in a car like a camry hybrid or prius just isn't a good idea.

 

Hino Trucks / Hino COE - Diesel and Diesel-Electric Hybrid

No its a nimh to flywheel system, with the ice clutched to the motor, similar to the system in bmw's and hyundai hybrids. It could be a full hybrid with a more powerfull battery and motor, but I am unsure how big that battery would need to be. It is a parallel and serial hybrid system though.

 

I was looking to see if it is at least 20-25% more efficient than a comparable diesel truck with hybrid system. Hybrid adds extra components plus DEF components in this truck as indicated in the instrument cluster.

 

Is there any technical reason why atkinson cycle (miller cycle?) can't be applied to diesel engines in hybrid applications, since the electric motors provide extra low-end torque that would allow less torque from the diesel engine? Apparently it's being used in large industrial diesel engines (
MAN Diesel & Turbo SE
-
NEW TECHNIQUES AID DIESEL PERFORMANCE
).

 

You have got to remember when you make an engine less powerfull and you need the power it adds weight. No reason for an atkinson diesel, if you can get by with an atkinson di gasoline with cooled egr like lexus is introducing in the ISh (europe only) you save weight and cost.

Miller cycle really gains efficiency from pumping outside versus inside the cylinder. The road worthy equivenlent is lowering the native compression of a diesel engine. The mazda skyactiv uses this technique and can get through the epa without urea. variable geometry turbo charging with low native compression would be the most likely diesel advance. I think the skyactiv use variable lift for both warm up and miller cycle. BMW uses variable lift for miller cycle on their turbo di gasoline engines, but variable geometry turbo charging on the diesels. Since they need a SCR urea solution to meet emissions anyway, they simply put the diesels in lean burn mode when too much air is present for demand. I'm not sure if the BMW or mazda engine is more efficient, but the mazda is lighter and less expensive for similar hp
MAZDA: SKYACTIV-D | ENGINE | SKYACTIV TECHNOLOGY

 

From the blurb it is claiming 30% better fuel economy, but it says it simply turns off the motor in steady cruzing. I can believe the 30% improvement in city diving though. Its a good system for hybrid busses and delivery trucks. I would guess that the hybrid system would greatly reduce pollution so that the urea, brakes, etc would last longer.

 

Really, does diesel is this configuration makes sense for passenger cars if SCR system is still needed, while Acura NSX Hybrid Supercar does not. Honda UK Accepting Pre-Orders For NSX Hybrid Supercar - HybridCars.com

 

No, it doesn't make any sense in a premium sporty car. The NSX looks like a less expensive version of the porsche 918 drive in an R8 looking body. I don't know if acura can pull it off, but if they do they should be able to compete with the Porsche 911, BMW 6, and Mercedes SL, with better handling, fuel economy, and reliability.

The Audi R10 if they make it will be a much more expensive race car that I think people will be scared to park. Still audi wants to make it as much as possible like their hybrid diesel LMP race car. I'm sure a few rich audi fans will buy it, but its not a step forward like the 918 or XL1.

I would hope the vw group takes some of the concept of the 918 and xl1, and does something like a $50K, 4 cylinder turbo gasoline eAWD performance car with great fuel economy. Use steel and aluminum instead of carbon fiber.

 

Did someone mention Mazda skyactiv diesel? CX-5 is selling over a year and here are the results from the road:

Übersicht: Mazda - CX-5 - Spritmonitor.de

CX-5 Skyactiv-D: 7.44 l/100 km (31.6 MPG)
CX-5 Skyactiv-G: 8.28 l/100 km (28.4 MPG)

Again almost no difference when you account energy value (73 kWh/100 km) of the fuel or CO2 (196 vs 193 g/km).

I will mention that CX-5 diesel had a few problems with very frequent DPF regeneration, maybe this adds to more consumption, Mazda is saying that they sorted this out in latest Mazda 6. We will see.