Diesels more popular than hybrids? (. . . except for . . .)

Discussion in 'Diesels' started by bwilson4web, Jan 3, 2014.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The wrong way would be selling diesels with little to no emission controls as Europe has done for most of the past few decades.

    That isn't happening. To be sold now in the US, a diesel passenger vehicle has to be as clean as a gasoline one, which has tougher emission regulations on them now than in the past 30 years.
     
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  2. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    Agree. As a matter of fact, EPA exhaust emission factors for current-generation diesel cars are lower for all emissions (exception NOx) than current-generation gasoline cars.

    Also, since most auto manufacturers are going to direct-injection gasoline engines (GDI), the PM emissions that have been reduced from diesels could be largely offset by the higher PM emissions from GDI.
     
  3. Hortevin

    Hortevin Junior Member

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    Euh...

    The problem is: The emission control system of recent diesel may work for EPA test or European cycle test, but in the real life driving situation, it just doesn't work.

    P.M filter, when it gets full of P.M (1500Km in average), the engine just make higher RPM to burn the filter, in order to get the P.M smaller, to evacuate them out of the filter. (It is called regeneration)

    It makes 2 problems:
    1. For city driving, as engine works at low RPM, it doesn't work. And many have mechanical troubles.
    2. The smaller P.M due to the regeneration is even more dangerous, as it can fly farer and cause more serious damage to lung.

    But as European cycle test or EPA will never take 1500Km long... this kind of problem will never happen.
     
  4. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    Regeneration is mostly a combustion process. Soot particles (comprised mostly of carbon) are oxidized to CO2 during regeneration. Analogy is burning charcoal for a barbeque - most of the charcoal is combusted (burned) to CO2. No combustion process is 100% complete, so there is some increase in particle emissions during regeneration (mostly from condensation of semi-volatile substances like SO3). However, studies have shown that particle emissions during regen are similar to what gasoline engines emit all the time (and regen typically occurs maybe 1-2% of the time).

    I have a diesel car (BMW 335d). There actually are a few available in the U.S. market. The inside of the tailpipes is still not perceptibly different with 55K miles (~90K km) than when I drove it off the dealer's lot with 3 miles on it, i.e., completely bare ss metal.
     
  5. n1das

    n1das New Member

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    What wxman said.

    I have a (bought new) 2014 BMW 535d and a (CPO deal) 2012 BMW X5 35d. They are by far the best cars I've ever owned. I drive mostly highway miles and they routinely meet or exceed their published MPG estimates while being driven hard and like they were stolen. I don't specifically drive them for MPGs simply because I don't HAVE to. There is no need to "train the driver" or any hypermiling techniques needed. The 600 mile tank range between fillups comes as a bonus with the same size tank as the gasser versions.

    Since I drive around 1k miles per week (90% highway) and I also LIKE to drive and am a driving enthusiast, I will ONLY own diesel cars. I've been driving diesel cars for the past 13 years and logged a combined total of more than 700k miles on them. They are the most efficient Autobahn burners I've ever owned. Bottom line is I absolutely WILL NOT own another gasser (hybrids included) ever again if I can help it. No more gassers! All future vehicle purchases of mine shall only be DIESEL vehicles.

    Since I'm a driving enthusiast and drive a lot, I tend to gravitate toward a "driver's car" instead of something simply to get me from point A to point B. Unfortunately a driver's car typically comes with a fuel economy penalty that is unacceptable for my work commute and other travels. You wanna play, you gotta pay. OTOH, with diesel, I like not having to downsize the car or downsize the driver's car performance to get the fuel economy needed. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too. And while there are some gassers on the market that have the same or maybe a slightly lower cost per mile given the current fuel price situation, they aren't cars I want to drive and none of them offer the kick of a turbo. I like the diesel's better low end torque characteristics for better low end grunt in different traffic situations. They are quick enough off the line and pull hills on the highway effortlessly like they're not there while still having plenty of passing power on those hills. It also makes for nice point and squirt into busy traffic when needed. Fundamentally I prefer to drive diesel cars because of the rich blend of Economy, Longevity, Performance, TORQUE, and Efficiency.

    As for emissions from my 535d and X5 35d, unlike gassers there is no exhaust smell AT ALL, even from a cold start. I'm unable to "roll coal" with them, no matter how hard I try. The exhaust pipes have remained incredibly clean, so clean in fact that I will offer a challenge to any gasser hybrid owner that approaches me in pubilc and tries to tell me that "diesels are dirty and bad for the environment." I will offer to swab the inside of the exhaust pipes with my fingers while they watch and LICK THEM afterwards and challenge them to do the same on their car while I watch. I've actually done this for a few friends and coworkers. Prius owners, lets see your exhaust pipe taste tests!

    Diesel makes perfect sense for use in passenger cars, IMHO.

    Good luck.
     
    #45 n1das, May 22, 2015
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
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  6. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Next test, Darwin:

    Sit in a closed garage with your car running for 30 minutes. After all, if you cannot see any crud it must be safe, right ?
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    when i was in the plumbing business, a rep used to come by and show us how the flux he sold was non toxic by eating it. he's dead now.
     
  8. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    #48 Sergiospl, May 22, 2015
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  9. n1das

    n1das New Member

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    LOL, you're aware that CO is almost nonexistent in diesel exhaust compared to gasoline exhaust, right? A diesel normally operates with way more air than needed for combustion due to being fuel throttled whereas a gasser being air throttled is crippled by having to run near stochiometic even at idle. The ultimate game of chicken would be for both of us to do your test and see who wins. And to be a fair test, engines must stay running at all times, no hybrid engine shutdown tricks allowed.

    Have fun!
     
  10. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_20141010.pdf

    I was not specifically thinking of CO, but Prius emits about 0.1 gram/mile. Feel free to look up your car.

    This is the CARB cert of Prius:

    Screen Shot 2015-05-23 at 1.03.12 AM.jpg
     
    #50 SageBrush, May 23, 2015
    Last edited: May 23, 2015
  11. n1das

    n1das New Member

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    That's an OTR big rig truck thing since the engines are a little more specialized. Never had this issue with any of my diesel cars. Apples and oranges and in a different league entirely.
    The stink goes away after about an hour. Not a big deal. Same thing happens with gasoline on your hands.
    100% NORMAL and absolutely nothing to worry about. I don't mind getting my hands dirty once in a while. The oil actually isn't "dirty". It SHOULD be black because it is doing it's job. All diesels push some soot into the oil and turn the oil black almost instantly. With the new clean diesels it takes a little longer but the oil still turns totally black. It takes a very small amount of old oil left in the engine to turn the new oil totally black within minutes following an oil change, often before the engine is started again. The soot particles are even too small for the oil filter to catch them and are suspended in the oil. The oil SHOULD be appear black because that means the oil is doing its job of soot control by keeping soot safely suspended in the oil where it does no harm. With a diesel the time to worry is if and when the oil appears anything OTHER than black. Seeing black oil in a diesel is a bit outside the comfort zone for gasser drivers who gauge when to do an oil change based on the oil's appearance. And while diesels turn the oil black almost instantly, they don't sludge the oil like gassers do. Also modern turbodiesels in passenger cars use a synthetic oil rated for diesels and also happens to be excellent choices for gassers too but they're not all created equal so check the ratings and approvals to be sure. And the oil change interval on a modern turbodiesel passenger car is very conservative at 10k miles and a little longer in some and has been verified thru laboratory oil analysis.
    I have to call BS on this one. LOL! Gasser hybrids get their best MPGs when the car comes to a stop and the gasser engine shuts down. Diesels can be shut down too and started up again but not necessary for great MPGs. My BMW 535d is not a hybrid but has automatic start/stop capability and automatically shuts down when stopped and starts up again when I take my foot off the brake. I've used the feature enough to verify that it works but I don't use it and keep it turned off because I never NEED to use it for MPGs. A diesel engine typically consumes about one quarter of the amount of fuel at idle compared to a gasser engine of the same size. My 2002 VW Golf TDI I owned years ago consumed 0.3L of fuel per hour at idle according to OBD-II diagnostic data. That's 5mL or equivalent to a couple of teaspoonfuls of fuel per minute. Not enough to be worth shutting it down when stopped at a traffic light! Even idling for an hour or two won't cause a significant hit in MPGs over a tankful of fuel. Overall diesel MPGs are still a lot better in stop and go traffic compared to their gasser counterparts. And while you do take a hit in MPGs, it's a much smaller hit compared to an equivalent gasser since diesels barely sip fuel at idle. Diesel still wins in my book in stop and go traffic.
    Sorry to hear that you feel that way. Your reasoning seems to be based on old school notions about diesels. These are not your dad's diesels! You owe it to yourself to check out and test drive a modern turbodiesel car. They still are not for everybody just like gasser hybrids aren't for everybody either so it's good to have choices.

    Have fun!
     
    #51 n1das, May 23, 2015
    Last edited: May 23, 2015
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I cannot imagine anyone wanting to turn this feature off in a Prius because it is completely transparent, saves fuel, saves emissions, and it is simply nice to be in a quiet car at a stop. I also like giving pedestrians and people working in drive-ins cleaner air to breathe.

    Obviously the same cannot be said for your car. What aspects of it suck so bad you go out of your way to shut if off ?
     
  13. n1das

    n1das New Member

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    Well said, Bob.
     
  14. n1das

    n1das New Member

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    Absolutely NONE. I don't have to go out of my way to shut it off either. Just a push of a button and it's off and it remains off unless I turn it back on. It's been off for the past 49k miles. There is simply no NEED to use it. It's a neat feature but simply not needed and not critical to the car's operation. If I wanted to hypermile I might use it but that's really not what I bought the car for. I drive a lot and for long distances and also LIKE the experience of driving so I chose to buy a fuel efficient car that appeals to the driving enthusiast. It's built to be an Autobahn burner and I drive it as such. The diesel's great fuel economy comes as a bonus. Different strokes for different folks.

    Good luck.
     
    #54 n1das, May 23, 2015
    Last edited: May 23, 2015
  15. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Sounds like a VW diesel loving troll to me. Diesel as a fuel is dying as it's too nasty other than for trains and trucks where there is no alternative. Diesel has some benefits but many many disadvantages. Steam engines also had some advantages, but their downsides made them obsolete. I'm sure there are folk out there sinking the praises of steam too.

    "Who needs diesel? My steam truck is lovely and warm in winter and coal is plentiful"
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”
    - Bilbo Baggins
     
  17. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    We've rented diesel Punto in Italy and on ~1500mi trip it got MPG higher than the similar sized C. Difference in fuel price was about the same as regular vs mid-range in US, with diesel being cheaper, but the MPG was ~20% higher, give or take.

    The pollution issue is really NOx, the rest is similar to gasoline cars. Particulate emissions also, but GDI is there too, so it is not all diesel.

    Interesting part about diesel that it is much easier to reduce CO2 footprint as there is no conversion needed. All modern diesels compatible with bio-diesel.
     
  18. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    How about bio-diesel? much cleaner than gasoline, and easier to make than ethanol.
     
  19. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Absolutely.

    I'd love to know how they're going to produce enough for all the diesel cars, trucks, tractors and trains in the uk, let alone Europe and then America.

    No doubt some magic, fully organic way that doesn't impede food production or cause pollution?
     
  20. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    Yeap, the same magic as is used to grow ethanol.
     
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