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Differences between V and non V CVT?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by black_jmyntrn, Mar 28, 2023.

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  1. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    To my knowledge, this isn't documented nor has it been talked about. I tried to search and even spoke with multiple Prius repair people and it doesn't sound like until today what I found out makes me happy to now know just... not happy.

    This whole time I thought and had been told the V CVT is stronger than the non V. It made sense, larger vehicle, different bolt pattern... my thought, put V CVT in my Plug-in and it would be good with the 2.0L to have a CVT that's stronger. The plan still is to take this V CVT I purchased with the orange cables cut and use its guts for my LSD. Just wish now it was "stronger", I guess I'm disappointed it's not. or is it that I'm missing something in all of this?

    Before I post pictures, I'm curious if anyone here knows the difference and if there is a thread I didn't search right where the differences were discussed?
     
    #1 black_jmyntrn, Mar 28, 2023
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    It's the same unit, with the addition of a second water jacket cover and hose nipples so the passages colored magenta here are included in the cooling loop. In the non-v, those passages are just exposed to air and unused. You could add that cooling loop to a non-v by buying the extra cover and hoses and some FIPG, and plumbing it in and adding the extra volume of coolant.

    [​IMG]

    The final drive ratio may be different for the v.
     
    #2 ChapmanF, Mar 28, 2023
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  3. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    This is what I am after! The rumor mill says its stronger... was hoping there was some sort of confirmation of this, Ill be ripping apart a V CVT and wanted some clarity or other words on this topic. It doesn't appear this territory has been ventured into... kinda hoped for some ray at the end of the tunnel other than what's been told to me thus far.

    The water jacket, I found out yesterday just wasn't sure if it had been discovered or mentioned here in the past. I've yet to find any discussions on it. I do plan on making the swap in the CVT I have of the jacket cover, this CVT will receive the lightened flywheel and LSD (made from the guts of a V CVT).

    You know, I've talked with over 20 Prius mechanics/repair shops across the country over the last few weeks, and non of them could tell me the differences in mentioning the extra jacket. Interesting to say the least.

    I made a video so folks could visually see the differences and posted it recently.
    Differences between Prius V CVT and non-V CVT

    also.. the CVT is significantly heavier than the engine, I've now lifted them both by hand and I was shocked at the weight difference. see the video of my lifting the CVT by hand
     
    #3 black_jmyntrn, Mar 28, 2023
  4. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I read (somewhere...) the tranxaxle on the v is mostly the same, except the gearing a bit revised, to compensate for the extra weight.

    You're intending to pull a functional transaxle out a gen 3, and replace with a v transaxle? Which possibly wont be functional, for whatever reason. Just for the heck of it?
     
    #4 Mendel Leisk, Mar 28, 2023
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  5. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    the gearing... hmmmm

    Well, yes I was... It would be bolted to the 2.0L that I have to put in, it's just, had an accident and it appears it blew out the CVT so, no now.

    I know... heh, I'm building my Prius to be a Tesla eater at the red light, I don't feel ill get there with the 2.0L and AWD with a rear motor more powerful than what is in the Rav4, but with the HybridMax motor which I can't wait to end up at a dismantler so its mine... its a strong yes ill win the race. 340hp in the front and 200kW aka 268hp should do it is the theory. With All-Terrain tires that don't spin and only grip it should be a fun video that goes viral is the plan!
     
    #5 black_jmyntrn, Mar 28, 2023
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  6. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I don't know that changing the final drive ratio makes it 'stronger' in any literal sense. The bearings and the shaft diameters are the same, I'm pretty sure, and able to carry most of the same forces. Changing the numbers of teeth on the final drive gears gives it a final drive ratio of, reportedly, 3.703 instead of the liftback's 3.268. That makes the engine rev higher at the same road speeds, traded off for torque to make the heavier v not feel slow.
     
    #6 ChapmanF, Mar 28, 2023
  7. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    I see says the blind man!

    In theory then, a non V would be "quicker" off the line with the V CVT... okay, I like the sound of that... the loss of torque does has my eye twitch as a drawback... um, okay. Much food for thought here, thanks! Will let you all know how this turns out, the need for "stronger" was more of the need. With the 2.0L being in my head "stronger" than the 1.8L I was trying to have a CVT that's stronger in the use of the "Prius" CVT since I'm not using the UX250h CVT from which this motor was born.
     
    #7 black_jmyntrn, Mar 28, 2023
  8. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    The v version has the increased cooling loop and slightly lower final gearing. None of that makes it the slightest bit stronger in the sense of able to handle greater input torque.
     
    #8 CR94, Mar 31, 2023
  9. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    A v has the lower final drive gearing to carry more load the bigger hatch allows. It does multiply low end torque at the expense of mpg (42 mpg combined). It has enhanced electtic ac and a special pitch and bounce control using electric torque. The v has larger standard tires and different rear brakes with brake shoes for the parking brake. No split rear window for better visibility.

    Rear seat leg and headroom is good and the rear seats slide and recline. Perfect taxi vehicle prized in Europe over Audis and Mercedes that belch diesel and have broken ac. The Prius v also has a longer wheelbase and is wider and taller than the liftback. It can carry a few 10 ft conduits or sticks of lumber and still close the hatch with the rear and front passenger seats folded down.

    IMG_1840.jpeg

    If only they had kept it long enough for a gen4 engine and bigger battery it would be world class today. Perhaps with a little soundproofing.
     
    #9 rjparker, Apr 1, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2023
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  10. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I've pretty much always had to do double-takes around the adjectives used for final drive ratios.

    The Gen 3 Prius liftback has about a 3.268 ratio, and the ratio for the v is 3.703, which looking at the numbers you might call a 'higher' number; it reduces speed, and increases torque, more than the liftback does, for the same given input. When we call it a 'lower' gearing, that sort of matches gears you can select in a transmission, where the 'lower' gears are the ones with the higher reduction ratios.

    The terms I've seen used for final drives that kind of sidestep any confusion with higher/lower is shorter/taller. It's like your legs; if you're tall, you can cover a lot of ground at a relaxed cadence, and if you're short, you have to pump faster to make the same speed.

    You still have to get used to the 'tall' numbers being the numerically low ones; a 3.268 final drive is taller than a 3.703. So the v has a shorter final drive. :)
     
    #10 ChapmanF, Apr 1, 2023
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  11. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    "A v has the lower final drive gearing" with a description of what that does means more to me than "higher numerical" or "shorter". Primarily because of its historical association with shifting to a lower gear for more acceleration and or towing capability.

    Sometimes its better to understand the results of an option without trying to explain a differential in an electric cvt. Yesterday I was talking to a guy with a 350,000 mile Camry hybrid who had no idea his "transmission" housed the electric motors. I did not mention their generator function or the planetary gears. He did not care.

    IMG_1842.gif

    Over at the Rav4 Hybrid forums practically no one asks detailed drivetrain questions. Perhaps reliabilty gained by those who came before tempers their need to know.
     
    #11 rjparker, Apr 1, 2023
  12. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    Keep in mind, it was only my assumption that it was stronger and this post with hands-on dismantling of the various CVT's is what should lead me to build a stronger cvt. At least that's my goal!

    Ohh, now, this is news to me... brake shoes for the parking brake? REALLY!
    I'd love to find a fully loaded 2017 V with a blown motor... complete the swap Im doing now with AWD and a larger battery plus the PHEV functionality achieving 100 miles on a full charge. That's my world-class Prius view after a few boxes of sound deadening and temperate control insulation.

    Bravo, bravo! This explanation has been the best interpretation of the ratios I've ever read! Truly thankful for your articulation!

    I think in the various communities you have some that are content being on the "high level" of understanding their vehicle. Others, can appreciate what's underneath and push for more understanding in order to improve on what they feel the OEM could've done differently.

    For me, there is no way id not want to make my Rav4 Prime greater by swapping in a more powerful rear electric motor. Last I checked no one had made mention of such a task.
     
    #12 black_jmyntrn, Apr 1, 2023
  13. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Well, it's not all electric ... and, to the point, the final drive and differential are built out of toothy steel bits the same way everybody else does.

    When people are explaining the CVT part, it's not uncommon to say the power-split device there works "a lot like a differential". Which is true. But there's also an actual differential in there too where the axles come out, and that one works exactly like a differential.
     
    #13 ChapmanF, Apr 1, 2023
  14. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    but is the differential different in the differences though the differentials? i kid i kid
     
    #14 black_jmyntrn, Apr 1, 2023
  15. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    Top speed in my v is 103 mph versus 115 in the gen 3. This trades a little more low end for a little less top end.
     
    #15 JimboPalmer, Apr 1, 2023
  16. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    And, by not much of a coincidence, 115 ✕ 3.268 ÷ 3.703 comes out, well, pretty close to 102.
     
    #16 ChapmanF, Apr 1, 2023
  17. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    interesting!!!! 117 for me in the PHEV with a skat pack owner and paper plates. When we happened to be walking into the same fireworks store many exits later, with his lady friend smirking he says "I just picked this up and will return it for a hellcat! having a Prius make me work for it over 110mph will never happen again"

    that by far was one of my proudest Prius owner moments ever!
     
    #17 black_jmyntrn, Apr 1, 2023
  18. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    You sir, shall never have my doubts in your words.. never.. ever.. again.
     
    #18 black_jmyntrn, Apr 1, 2023
  19. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Does the plug-in Prius use the same one-way clutch as the Prime?

    If it does, wouldn't that be another major difference vs. the v?
     
    #19 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Apr 1, 2023
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    unfortunately, that wasn't developed until the prime
     
    #20 bisco, Apr 1, 2023
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