Disproportionate Response

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 19 2006, 06:08 PM) [snapback]289085[/snapback]</div>

Dr. Berman,

Don't get me wrong. I despise Hezbollah. However, Hezbollah is a significant force in Lebanon’s politics with twenty-three seats in the 128-member Lebanese Parliament and two ministers in the government. It is also a major provider of social services, operating schools, hospitals, and agricultural services, for thousands of Lebanese Shiites (Council on Foreign Relations - Backgrounder Hezbollah). The Shiites comprise 45% of Lebanon's population (Council on Foreign Relations - When the Shiites Rise).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 19 2006, 06:08 PM) [snapback]289085[/snapback]</div>

So then may I ask where you get your information? I do not read the NY Times and I rarely watch CNN. As IsrAmeriprius has pointed out, you are not correct in many of your statements.

When 45+% of the country is the same religion as them...it is a difficult argument to make that these people would ever attack one of their own...no matter the reason. Yes, some of their thoughts may be kept to themselves...but comparing this to the Poles and Soviets...it's not even close. The Islamic world works completely differently, and not matter their political/religious differences, they always seem to stick together when it comes to Israel and the West.

As has been pointed out, they were able to gain so many seats in BOTH the government and the cabinet by being good to the people. They did not force their way in through scare tactics or military might (if that is untrue please support your position with facts). I truly believe that many in Lebanon think that Hezbollah is much stronger then their own government and military, and so they aren't about to pick sides.

Oh, and they do wear uniforms...as has been widely reported! In fact, many commentators keep stressing the point that they are not in the same class as "terrorists" or "insurgents"...they are a true army (a much worse kind of terriorist!). However, I am sure that they, like they scum that they are...dress like civilians when fighting.

As far as them the Lebanese celebrating...that is EXACTLY what we said about Iraq! Now look at Iraq! I do not believe that they see the Hezbollah as an occupying force (if you do, then support your position with facts as IsrAmeriprius has)...they may not agree with them, but they also do not want to kill them.

I think you are failing to see that we are both on the same side here.
1. We both agree that Hezbollah needs to be destroyed
2. We both agree the Israel has the right to defend itself and its citizens
3. We both agree that Hezbollah is a terrorist group NO MATTER what good they have done for citizens in Lebanon
4. We both agree that the UN resolution was never enforced and needs to be
5. We agree about the rights given to Israel via the Geneva convention.

The only place we disagree is if Israel can destroy Hezbollah this way. If it was a conventional war (face to face army fighting) then it would be no contest. But since Hezbollah will pick and choose their battles and do have significant military might when used in a focused manner, Israel faces a huge uphill battle. Can they weed out enough of Hezbollah so that it never resurfaces? Just like weeks in the garden, if you do not get 100% of the roots, they will eventually grow back!

As far as my ideas...I am not a military guy...and couldn't possibly know the best way. Seems like if Israel had more backing from more countries..and that if a multinational force had gone after Hezbollah, then it may have been easier to get the citizens of Lebanon to "get out of the way" and also get other Middle East countries to stand behind that force. It is just difficult to believe that the citizens of any middle east country will rejoice when Israel defeats some of their muslum brethren.

I know that you are very upset about this issue (as evidenced by your use of 80+ parenthesis), but please try to see that I am not on the opposite side as you. I really do hope that you are right and that Israel is able to do this...it will make the world a lot safer for all of us Jews!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 20 2006, 05:18 PM) [snapback]289368[/snapback]</div>

Right. And we all know that this is Israel's specialty: provide all chances to their neighbors to grow their economy, create jobs and educate people. The Palestinians of course are the example on how that must be done.

And, before you ask: no, I have no other solution. Why would I even try to find one? All I know is that, if things continue like that, every terrorist they kill is replaced by two others. The most dangerous and effective weapon the Arabs have is the uterus. Just look at the demographic trends inside Israel. How long will it take before there will be a muslim majority inside Israel?

Now, let the flames begin...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 19 2006, 05:30 PM) [snapback]289061[/snapback]</div>

Good point. I didn't come here for an argument (quoting the Monty Python comedy routine), I came for a discussion.

Ignore On.

 

From The Huffington Post:

[Excerpts]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Smooth Operator @ Jul 19 2006, 02:55 PM) [snapback]288860[/snapback]</div>

<_<

 

Squid,

Don't forget that Lebanon is not recognizing Hezbollah casualties as Military casualties...so we really don't know what those numbers represent. It is pretty sad though...too bad Israel couldn't have allowed the evacuation first then blasted the hell out of what was left. Would have been a lot "cleaner".

 

ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
Harvard Law Professor
Wall Street Journal
July 19, 2006; Page A12

[Excerpts]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 20 2006, 09:30 PM) [snapback]289728[/snapback]</div>

This, of course, is all find and dandy, but there's an underlying assumption both sides are relatively equally matched. A good question might be whether or not they would resort to terrorism if they had, let's say, a reasonably well equipped army and air force. These are people who feel cornered up against a wall. They don't have tanks or airplanes, they have to fight with what they've got and make it as effective as they can. Then again, one should probably expect such acts when they're oppressing an entire group of people as such...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 20 2006, 08:15 PM) [snapback]289692[/snapback]</div>

I'm sure this will come across bad, and I'm sure I'll take crap for it, but it is what it is. I really don't think the Israeli's give a fat flying F. To them, these people aren't even human, I think the appropriate word they would use is "goyim". To be fair though, I'm sure the reverse is true...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 20 2006, 09:01 PM) [snapback]289739[/snapback]</div>

How many points if I tell you how Isreal is oppressing Iran?

 

I can't agree with you daronspicher that Israel is oppressing anyone outside of the Palestinians.

I can understand how some of the Palestinians feel, as they truly have been left to "rot" by everyone. Please remember it was not Israel who moved the Palestinians, it was the UN and all of the members of the security council. Israel is just the closest and most obvious target and has been left holding the bag.

Who has failed the Palestinians, the list is too long...and includes EVERY Arab country!

However, they are not without blame in their conflict with Israel. They make it sound like the country of Palestine was dissolved to create Israel...which simply is not true.

How come they never complain about the areas of Palestine that were "annexed" by both Jordan and Egypt? Why don't they harbor the same grudge against their Arab "brothers" for occupying land formerly known as Palestine? Funny how they only became sensitive to their long lost Palestine after Israel was created.

It is strikingly obvious, that they simply hate the Israeli's/Jews and will never let them live there in peace. So, I concede that Israel has found it necessary to "opress" a good portion of the palestinians...for they fear that if they let up, even for a minute, the Palestinians will use the "peace" to covertly build their forces (like Hamas and Hezbollah) to eventually attack Israel again. It is a never ending cycle, that Israel hopes to end once and for all. Can they do that? I doubt it...but they have decided that this point in history is the time to try!

And Squid, and for your "goyim" comment...it simply is used to describe one who is not Jewish. I have not heard it used in the way you propose...and when in Israel, I never heard anyone refer to any of the Arabs as Goyim.

Unlike these Islamic crazies, jews accept the fact that there are other religions and do not look at those people as not being human. However, the word "terrorist" does imply that the person is not human and is better suited for this discussion.

Having visited this area, I can tell you that Israeli's on the street can live "normal" lives in peace with the surrounding countries and religions and never think about it again. The only time that they think of their neighbors is when a conflit arises. The same can not be said about the surrounding countires. The destruction and punishment of Israel is all they think about and all that consumes them!

All of the countries of the world love to point their finger and look down their nose at Israel when they are forced to deal with the Palestinian situation...yet all of these countries are the ones to blame!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 20 2006, 06:56 PM) [snapback]289735[/snapback]</div>

Jews do not believe non-jews are sub-human. Never had, and they have a 6,000 year history of writings to prove it. They also have a long history in this country of being on the side of the down-trodden and less fortunate, from the Revolutionary period to the civil rights marches of the 1960s.

War is not a sporting contest where you send in your second string players if you start racking up the points. Because we are not talking about points in war, we're talking about lives. There are very few conflicts that are ultimately resolved with treaties and compromise that leave the underlying issue to smolder. It is one of life's tremendous dichotomies: in order to save the most lives, you must kill the most lives. Anything less than unconditional surrender simply delays the inevitable.

If Isreal stops before the last Hezie is dead in the street, millions will die later on. Life is full of difficult choices, and one of them is that you have to decide if killing 1,000 today is better than having millions die in 10 years. I know which choice I would make, and I can support it on moral and ethical grounds without resorting to anti-semitism.

I actually think that if Lebanon asks an Arab and American presence to help them, with Egypt, Jordan, Turkey and the US stationing troops there instead of the ineffective baby-blue helmet troops that have been there for years, it has a chance of working. Isreal would be more comfortable with an American presence there with the Arabs and Turks, and the Lebanese would be more comfortable with their Arab allies there. A strong, independent Lebanon would be better for their citizens, for Isreal and the world.

 

I'm hoping a peaceful solution can be found. It's difficult to imagine how one can be found but I am open to the possibility. My best guess is that a Palestinian state that is not only secure and independent but also prosperous would probably help with Arab tensions quite a bit, but that's still a very long way off, and I'm not sure how Israel could pull it off given the situation they've created. But over time things can change.

At the same time, one has to realize that things may get bleak enough at some point, that in order to prevent World War III, it may be necessary for the United States and Europe to completely destroy Israel (they can always build a New Israel somewhere else that doesn't happen to be in the middle of another, far more populous religion's holy lands). However much some subset of Jewish people may deserve to have an ethnic homeland of their very own, it's not worth dragging the rest of the world through World War III over it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jul 21 2006, 02:21 AM) [snapback]289838[/snapback]</div>

That all depends. The more close-knit a community, the more everyone else is an outsider. If caucasian people want a small taste of what it feels like to be a racial minority, try living right on the outskirts of a Jewish neigborhood in New York City. I've witnessed plenty of piercing blank stares from Jews living in my neighborhood that I saw every day walking down the street, whose presence I tried to acknowledge with a friendly nod as they walked by.

My friend Aaron who went to Columbia University noticed over and over again that when Jewish friends mistakenly assumed he was Jewish, they all invited him to dinner in their homes where there was always somebody present who would repeatedly bash the goyim. But his Jewish friends, even very close ones, who knew he was not Jewish, never invited him to dinner in their homes, not once. I don't think this set of behaviors is due to racism exactly though. It's more like, uh, opportunity?

No, of course Jews don't, as a rule, believe that non-Jews are sub-human. But that doesn't mean that once you put enough Jews together in the same place that at least some of them won't treat non-Jews that way. And I'm sure it's much the same with any other dominant group (such as white men like me) even if it is not wholly intentional.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 21 2006, 12:20 AM) [snapback]289808[/snapback]</div>

No, the word you're referring to is "gentile"...

1 entry found for goyim.
goy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (goi)
n. Offensive pl. goy·im (goim) or goys
Used as a disparaging term for one who is not a Jew.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Subversive @ Jul 21 2006, 03:42 AM) [snapback]289851[/snapback]</div>

+1000

It's that sort of thing that makes it REAL easy for people to become racists towards Jews. I call it like it is, racism. In their case however, racsim from them is socially acceptable.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 21 2006, 05:48 AM) [snapback]289869[/snapback]</div>

Squid, please keep in mind that definitions offer differ from the actual use of the word. Please read below as it more accurately describes how we use the word (of course, you are correct that some Jews would use the term in a more negative way, just as other words, like "gringo" can be used in many ways...and depending on the situation, it can have a negative connotation).

Taken from Use of Goyim term

"Goyim, Shiksas and Shkutzim
The most commonly used word for a non-Jew is goy. The word "goy" means "nation," and refers to the fact that goyim are members of other nations, that is, nations other than the Children of Israel.

There is nothing inherently insulting about the word "goy." In fact, the Torah occasionally refers to the Jewish people using the term "goy." Most notably, in Exodus 19:6, G-d says that the Children of Israel will be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," that is, a goy kadosh. Because Jews have had so many bad experiences with anti-Semitic non-Jews over the centuries, the term "goy" has taken on some negative connotations, but in general the term is no more insulting than the word "gentile."

The more insulting terms for non-Jews are shiksa (feminine) and shkutz (masculine). I gather that these words are derived from the Hebrew root Shin-Qof-Tzade, meaning loathsome or abomination. The word shiksa is most commonly used to refer to a non-Jewish woman who is dating or married to a Jewish man, which should give some indication of how strongly Jews are opposed to the idea of intermarriage. The term shkutz is most commonly used to refer to an anti-Semitic man. Both terms can be used in a less serious, more joking way, but in general they should be used with caution. "

Also here Biology online

"The Hebrews included in the term goyim, or nations, all the tribes of men who had not received the true faith, and were not circumcised. The Christians translated goyim by the L. Gentes, and imitated the jews in giving the name gentiles to all nations who were neither jews nor Christians. in civil affairs, the denomination was given to all nations who were not romans."

As far as you racism comments, this happens over and over again. One can not be racist against Jews, as Jews are a religion, not a race. Also, what you are talking about, where the Jews would exclude someone from a different faith is not racist either...as that is based solely on faith, and has nothing to do with race. Hey, some people are just stupid and like to hang out with people that are their same, race, religion, intelligence level, etc. This is not just a Jewish thing, and I would say that only a very tiny population of Jews would do this. I have hundreds of Jewish friends and none of them ever exclude non-jews.

There is also the perception that Jews that live in Israel are "super jews" or the most religious of the Jews. Of course, per catpita, there are more Orthodox jews there, but just like here, there are also many many reform...who live their lives the same way you and I do.

I hope you can visit Israel sometime to see what I am talking about...it is so different than what people think.