Disproportionate Response

Back to the original question, Is the Israeli response disproportionate?

easy answer: Do they have their kidnapped soldiers back?

NO

Well apparently the response is not only NOT disproportionate it is insufficient!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Jul 21 2006, 12:07 PM) [snapback]289985[/snapback]</div>

And do you just not care about how many innocent people die along the way?

By the way, when an Israeli soldier was "kidnapped" in the Palestinian Terroritories on June 25 by Palestinian militants, it was in response to Israeli soldiers "kidnapping" a doctor and his brother the day before. And in regards to the more recent Israeli soldiers that were captured by Hezbollah for the purpose of prisoner exchange, well Hezbollah still doesn't have it's three Lebanese citizens that were "kidnapped" by Israel prior to that back either. So perhaps you are suggesting that this was an "insufficient" response by Hezbollah as well?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 21 2006, 11:33 AM) [snapback]289966[/snapback]</div>

And the refusal by many more conservative Jews to assimiliate into the societies where they choose to live, along with the words they use to describe outsiders (and in comparison to "chosen" to describe themselves), has in turn contributed greatly to the worldwide anti-Semitism which they have become victims of. It's a vicious circle, just like in the Middle East.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Subversive @ Jul 21 2006, 06:24 PM) [snapback]290195[/snapback]</div>

Nope... those innocent people are harboring hezbola militants. Hezbola went to war with Isreal... Sleep in the same bed with Hezbola, die in the same grave with them....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 21 2006, 07:46 PM) [snapback]290205[/snapback]</div>

Well, that's certainly the same logic that Hamas militants use in regards to "innocent" Israeli citizens.... They have not done enough to curtail the oppressive actions of their own military and government, therefore they are legitimate targets too....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Subversive @ Jul 21 2006, 04:24 PM) [snapback]290195[/snapback]</div>

You are way off base!

1. Innocent? - So hiding terrorists and/or refusing to expell terrorists makes you innocent? If you hide a criminal here you are committing a crime...and if you don't "help" them directly, but "forget" to tell the police that you saw them, you are still committing a crime. These "innocent" people openly say that they would rather kill Israelis then go against their bretheren...no matter how radical they may be.

2. Israel kidnaps people? - So when you arrest someone for plotting against you, or you need to question someone it is called kidnapping? Where are you getting your information from...do you have a spy on the ground over there? Hamas gave you a call and told you that was the reason for the kidnapping?

3. You Defend Hezbollah? They are a known terror organization that has killed more Americans that anyone else except Osama. All countries of the world who stand against terrorism should have the right to arrest ANY Hezbollah members...afterall, they openly admit to all of the things they have done, yet have never stood trial for their crimes

Hezbollah is and has always been guided by Iran. The Lebanese people are just pawns to them...and are used as human shields! If they truly stood for good...they would lay down their arms for the world to see, and become the world's best peaceful humanitarian group. They now have the attention of the entire world...and could prove to the world that their goal is no longer to destroy Israel and the West...but to better the lives of the Lebanese people.

But we all know that this is NOT the case.

If it so easy to criticize Israel...but if North America was like the Middle East, and Canada was are enemy and wanted to destroy us, and had missles right at our border, and jumped over the border to grap our troops...we would all be screaming to NUKE them.

Israel is not blameless...but please do not sympathize with terrorists who would kill you if given the chance!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 21 2006, 08:15 PM) [snapback]290227[/snapback]</div>

I forgot--when Israel does it, it is called "arresting." When anyone else does it, it is called "kidnapping." Whatever.

The information is widely available, it's just not widely reported by the American media.

I don't support terrorism or religious authoritarianism. I don't support attacks upon civilians, whether Israeli or Arab. But in fairness, Hezbollah is only news worthy because it's a scary Arab-sounding name that can be attached to (gasp!) Middle East terrorism. A more balanced review of them would show them to be not that much different than all the other nutbag political parties in the Middle East (including the Israelis):

Hezb'Allah' (Arabic: حزب الله‎, meaning Party of God) is a Lebanese Shia Islamic group and political party, with a military arm and a civilian arm, founded in 1982 to fight the Israeli Defense Forces who occupied southern Lebanon until the year 2000. Hezbollah is regarded by the Iranian and Syrian governments as a legitimate resistance, a view common in the Arab and Muslim world, and is a recognized political party in Lebanon, where it has participated in government. The civilian wing participates in the Parliament of Lebanon and also runs hospitals, news services, and educational facilities. Its Reconstruction Campaign (Jihad al-Bina) is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructural development projects in Lebanon. Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by the governments of Israel, the United States, the United Kingdom, and Canada. The European Union does not list Hezbollah as a "terrorist organization."

And if an overpowering contingent of Europeans decided that they had been chosen by God to occupy the United States but most of us would be free to continue living here on massive reservations that would be set up in the desert and mountains, surrounded by tanks and armed guards, far from all water and food sources, I suspect that there would be a resistance movement to the occupation (and "push New Europe into the Atlantic Ocean!"), and that we might even receive some occasional support from our neighbor Canada.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 21 2006, 11:33 AM) [snapback]289966[/snapback]</div>

I pretty much completely disagree with you. Here's an excerpt from the link you posted:

"Goyim" is a racist term. Personally, I consider "gentile" a racist term as well, regardless of how the severity of it is effectively, "officially", downplayed. I've lived in NYC just as some other poster mentioned, and I've gotten an up close and personal glimpse into the Jewish community, and I have personally observed PRECISELY how each of those terms have been used, and I don't like it at all.

EXACTLY.

When you reach the pinnacle or racism, it becomes a "religion" doesn't it?

But hey, in an effort to be balanced and not appear as if I'm a card carrying member of the new 3rd reich, I could just as easily say the same thing for, in essence, for the whack-job Arabs who think they must obliterate anyone who is not, effectively "chosen"...

To tell you the truth though, in my experience, it's been about 50/50. 50% of the Jewish people I've met, and some I'm even friends with are pretty cool, YET there's that other 50% that let's just say, really rub me the wrong way....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Subversive @ Jul 21 2006, 12:42 AM) [snapback]289851[/snapback]</div>

I'm sorry for your truly traumatic experiences with Jews ignoring you when you walked down the street, and the horrors reported by your friend regarding dinner invitations. I just don't see the moral equivalency of THAT and having a murderous suicide bomber taking out a crowded city bus, or firing hundreds of rockets into residential areas.

I may or may not like Jews as a people, or as a subculture. I may or may not like their theology, their politics or their culinary taste. I may feel slighted by them, or annoyed when they converse in Hebrew behind me when I'm trying to sleep on a red eye flight. But my likes and dislikes do not change the written record and history of the Jewish people and their view of their fellow man. For me to say that they, as a people, think other people groups are subhuman would be to engage in inflammatory rhetoric designed to sway the ignorant or inspire the anti-semitic. But that's because I know what the Jewish people believe about other people groups. And I know how they treat other people groups, including Muslims, within their own country. I'll choose to believe you are just not aware of the truth, and are trying to be "fair" and "even handed" in your discussion.

 

Squid,

I too have been in New York...and many of the things you and the other poster have said are NOT unique to the Jewish population there. As a general rule, New Yorkers, are not as personable and openly friendly as people from other areas, like Los Angeles where I live. New Yorkers also have many other deragatory terms for just about everything and everyone. It is not exactly "niceville". Now add some deeply religious people, no matter the religion, and you are bound to get people who wish to exclude others. This is no different from any other religion, race, etc.

You are taking one small segement of the worldwide Jewish population and painting them with the same brush because you knew some New York Jews. That is hardly fair, and your experiences with them can hardly represent all of 15 million Jews. I mean C'mon, how many jews have you really known? 5, 10, 20, 100...to make the claim that 50% of Jews are that way. Have you been to Israel, to Russia, to Spain, to Mexico, to South Africa...to visit the millions of Jews who live there and "gotten an up close and personal" view of them?

Hey, I am not going to argue over how you feel about the use of the word goyim...I can only tell you how everyone I know uses it. I can tell you though, that since there are billions more people then the Jews in the world, it is much more often that a Jew is called a name or excluded then the other way around. I mean, how many jokes say "there was this christian guy, this hispanic guy, and this asian guy"?

Most Jews do not go about their everyday lives thinking that they are the "chosen" ones, looking down at everyone else. I would consider anyone who does look down on others as an idiot, not matter if they do share my same religion.

Just as with any religion there are people on the fringes. However the Jews on the fringe DO NOT want to obliterate all other religions as do these whack jobs! Think about it, if Jews do think they are the "chosen" ones then why would they have to do anything to anyone...they are already "in" with God.


Subversive,

Read this:

Terrorism Knowledge Base

After the attacks of September 11th, Hezbollah is responsible for the next largest anti-American terrorist attack. In October 1983, a truck bomb killed 241 American Marines at the multinational force barracks in Beirut. The following year, a suicide bombing at the U.S. embassy in Beirut killed 17 Americans, including many of the embassy's CIA staff. The group is also thought to be responsible for attacks against US and Jewish targets in Africa, Sweden, Denmark, Thailand, Argentina and the UK (Note: All of these targets are NOT in the Middle East, making them a global terrorist group, not a middle East one as you have suggested) . The 1992 bombing of the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish cultural centre in Buenos Aires are the most well known.

Current Goals: Hezbollah's stated objectives include the establishment of a Shiite theocracy in Lebanon, the destruction of Israel and the elimination of Western influences from the region.

US Terrorist Exclusion List Designee: No
UK Proscribed Group: Yes
Australia Specified Group: Yes
Canada Specified Group: Yes
EU Specified Group: No (<although>The Netherlands, Italy and Poland, however, have agreed to consider Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.)

Now answer this...where has Israel stated it goals to destroy all of the countries around it? They could have easily done this over and over again! Where has Israel been designated as a Terror group?

Israel did not create itself, it was created by the UN! Why is it that you and others keep saying that Israel created itself? Your "suppose" example about the US does not hold water. Now if the UN created a state within the US and moved everyone else out...that would fit better...and puts the blame exactly where it belongs...on the UN and the countries involved with those decisions. All Israelis can do is live with what was given to them, and either run or protect themselves.

 

http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Subversive @ Jul 21 2006, 06:57 PM) [snapback]290215[/snapback]</div>

That's why when you go pick a fight, you typically don't stand there with a rock in each hand and then pick on the big guy with the F14's and an elite high tech military.

Which is also why so many idiots think there should be a "proportional" response. They throw a rock at you, you throw one back... BS... They kidnap your soldiers, you start leveling things at a fierce pace until there is nothing left to level, or until they give your guys back.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 22 2006, 01:46 AM) [snapback]290205[/snapback]</div>

And how do you know that? So far, hundreds of civilians have died in Lebanon. I don't think you know them all. You don't know how they lived or what they did. With one sentence, you declared them all guilty, and said that they deserve to die. That's the ultimate arrogance to me. Do you know the cornerstone of your justice system: innocent until proven guilty?

Hezbolah is an organisation with two faces. It has a military and terrorist part, which is the one that is most visible to the outer world. It also has a social part, and this is seen by the Lebanese people. Has it never come to your mind that many civilians in Lebanon might be misleaded? That they simply lack the objective information to truly judge the activities of Hezbolah? They don't have the same sources of information as you and I have. They are no terrorist, but they don't know the true span of Hezbolah's activities, simply because they are victims of their propaganda machine. So they must die?

Of course, there will be a number of real terrorists in those casualties, people who deserved to die. But there will also be a number of honest, innocent people. How many innocent people are you willing to kill in order to eliminate one terrorist? Where is the balance?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 22 2006, 11:22 AM) [snapback]290393[/snapback]</div>

Sometimes, you don't have the luxury to chose your fights. Only picking the fights you are sure to win is a typical coward's behaviour.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 22 2006, 11:22 AM) [snapback]290393[/snapback]</div>

If everybody would have your attitude, this world would completely have gone to hell a long time ago. Why? Because every offence, even the smallest, would escalate in a series of stronger conflicts, without any mechanism to stop that vicious circle. That's why the concept of "proportional response" is a key concept in world history. In a sense, you can say it's the basis of human civilisation. If it would be completely missing, co-existence would be impossible. It has often be violated, but has an overal concept it's crucial.

BTW "proportional" doesn't mean "the same" as you seem to assume with that stone example. If you are in a position to punish someone else, there should be some reasonable proportion between the punishment and the original offence.

It's also a matter of looking into the future. At a given moment, you may be the strongest, and tempted to dish out a hell of a punishment. If you do this, your opponent will remember that if he is the position to revenge it. A typical example is how WWII is linked to WWI. After WWI, the "winning" party decided to give an unbalanced punishment to the losing party, a real revenge. This was definetely key ingredient to the breeding of WWII.

If you like Biblical citations: there are quite a few that put it very precisely:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7 KJV)

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12 KJV)

That's very old, valuable wisdom. And it translated directly into the concept of proportional response.

 

vtie, imagine for a moment you are not living in your comfy home in Belgium, but are an Israeli.

You **know**, based on decades of experience of Israelis captured by arab armies or terrorist organizations, that should you be kidnapped, your fate will be torture until death unless a prisoner swap puts an end to it.

What would you like your government's proportional response to be for you ?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Subversive @ Jul 22 2006, 12:27 AM) [snapback]290377[/snapback]</div>

Subversive,
Are you really serious that you believe all of that propaganda? Those pictures could just as easily be from any Hezbollah terror strike. They can be from any war...even Iraq! I have been to Israel and around their military...they are so aware of security...there is no way they would have let small school children anywhere near their live ordinance...and people would not have been causally laughing in the background. The people in Israel are hunkered down...and not wandering around looking at their artillery!

How do you know that that website is not a front for Hezbollah to collect "donations" to fund more terror strikes? Are you kidding me with the paypal address to send money? Are any of us really dumb enough to send money to an anonymous paypal address just because we see some ugly pictures?

I realize that civilians have been killed, and it is horrible, but considering the thousands of bombs dropped and millions of potential casualties, I think that Israel has done the best it can to minimize innocent civilian casualties.

If someone dropped leaflets in my neighborhood, and they said to get out before we level you city...I would! If you don't then know the possible consequences. If you can't leave, then you are truly the only "innocent" civilian...and more should have been done to help those who had no means to leave.

Vtie,
You make some great points...and I think that you are right about decisions about how many innocent people would need to die in order to wipe out a terror group like Hezbollah. At this point in time, Hezbollah has maybe killed a few thousand people with their terror activities...but what is their potential for killing more? One dirty bomb supplied by Iran could easily wipe out a few hundred thousand people...are we willing to wait until that happens?...or are we allowed to extrapolate based on their past activates and current rhetoric to what the future of their attacks looks like?

It is this extrapolation that has led Israel to decide that this was time in history to stop this once and for all...and with that, except that a number of innocent civilians on both sides would have to perish. Israel knows that they will forever be blamed for all of the current civilian losses, but is willing to trade that for preventing the catastrophe in the future.

Will it work? That is the question we are all waiting to see.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jul 22 2006, 07:16 PM) [snapback]290518[/snapback]</div>

I understand your argument. My original reaction was against too simplistic reasoning about the civilians that are killed in the mean time. The so-called "collateral damage", a horrible term. It makes it somehow sound acceptable and normal.

About your question, honestly, I have no clear answer to your question. It all comes down to what you still call proportional of course. I agree that it's the right of Isreal to do everything necessary to stop the terrorism, and hunt down the ones that are responsible for it, also across the borders if necessary. But from what I hear in the news, Israel is actively destroying civilian targets that have nothing to do with terrorists, such as bridges, airports and power plants. I would call that disproportional, because it goes beyond the original target and smells more like revenge. It's not in Israels long-term interest to destabilise their neighbors. But of course, I'm not on the site so I don't really know what's going on.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 22 2006, 07:59 PM) [snapback]290542[/snapback]</div>

Personally, I think it won't work. It has never worked in the past. And I'm also convinced that, whatever we try to do, we can't avoid that one day a dirty weapon or even a nuclear weapon will be successfully used in a terroristic attack. You can't control the spread of it. Everybody looks at Iran and North-Korea, but few people realise that Pakistan is the biggest threat in the long term. Very unstable, a fundamentalistic potential, and with a nuclear arsenal. For the moment, the U.S. likes to think of them as an ally, but that's plain wrong. It's an ally just as Saddam Hussein, the Taliban and even Bin Laden was an ally once.

So, my view point is pessimistic: the world is no safe place, and you can't counter the threat of terrorism by bombing it to hell. That doesn't mean of course that you shouldn't fight it. But you need to fight it in two ways: with weapons, but also by trying to eliminate it's source. In the case of the Middle East, the Hezbollah and Hamaz wouldn't have any chance if the countries they are active in were stable and in good shape.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Jul 22 2006, 11:42 AM) [snapback]290564[/snapback]</div>

I agree. The hardest part is that these terror groups act like they have great intentions towards their people, but actually purposely keep them "down" to increase their power. Yes, they share a small percentage of their money...but the majoriity still goes to buy weapons, nice houses, eat good food, buy nice cars, fund terror plots, etc. If they spent all of the money they get on their country, they would make a huge impact. Hezbollah and Hamas are easily just as much to blame for keeping their countries in the "dark ages".

Their chosen "profession" is terrorist, and they can not just assimilate and get a regular job...so it is not in their best interest to help their countires become stable and prosperous. Add to that the religious aspect and this will never end.

I give Israel kudos for at least trying something...and to an extent they have seen that while we have had Osama on the run, we have not been hit by any other terror attacks...so they could easily assume that this strategy works...at least for the time being.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 22 2006, 08:54 PM) [snapback]290569[/snapback]</div>

Absolutely. I don't believe that there is such a thing as a "noble" terrorist organisation. No Robin Hoods here. They know that keeping the people out of balance and misinformed is in their best interest.

But it's interesting what happened to the Palestinians recently. Hamaz was chosen in a democratic election, simply because the people were honestly upset and dissatisfied with the previous governement, which was totally corrupt and self-servicing. To them, Hamaz appeared as a valid alternative, because they are so desparate. Quite dramatic actually. I think the international community should have done more to steer the previous government in the right direction, and ultimately give them more credibility. Somehow the international community needs to listen, not to Hamaz of course, but to the simple but honest Palestinian-on-the-street.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 22 2006, 08:54 PM) [snapback]290569[/snapback]</div>

I don't think Israel has any alternative. I think we agree that it's that, or die. They have done well, apart from a few glitches. About the terrorist attacks: it depends on who you call "we". I don't think the people in Madrid and London would agree with you.

 

vtie said

I can count on two thumbs the number of times Israel has acted out of revenge, and I assure you: I know Israeli history better than anyone here, perhaps better than everyone else here put together.

If Israel is destroying infrastructure, it is as a prelude to invasion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jul 22 2006, 10:05 PM) [snapback]290602[/snapback]</div>

One of the acts that I was referring to was bombing the main power plant in Gaza. I think that, if they want, Israel can invade Gaza bare-feeted, without needing to bomb that power plant. What was the reason for doing this? Like it or not, but they are doing the extremists amongst the Palestinians a great service by further de-stabilising the region. There might be a good, sound reason for the Israeli's do to it, but it is beyond my grasp.

Ironically, the plant was partially built with U.S. investment money, and insured by an U.S. insurance.

Concerning your credentials about Israeli history: it may very well be true, but, on the Net, I only listen to the value of arguments and not to what people claim to be.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Jul 21 2006, 06:07 PM) [snapback]289985[/snapback]</div>

But there is a flaw in your logic: it's not because the goals are not reached that it can't be disproportionate. Just a simple example: suppose that Israel would nuke the entire surface of Lebanon. That wouldn't bring back those soldiers, but I think we all agree that it would be disproportionate (well, I hope we all agree...).

 

Vtie, Subversive,

Are you calling those innocent people stupid?

They don't know that there are militants in their back yard launching rockets over the border?

Too dumb to know that the rumbling they feel, the roar of the rocket taking off is what?

Too dumb to read... really, all of them? Because Isreal is dropping leaflets that explain the situation. So, if these severely stupid people didn't realize what was happening with all the rockets being launched out of the laundry room, maybe they could figure it out from the paper falling from the sky.

I don't think anyone is that dumb, so I'm going to call it what it is... those 'innocent' people are aware that the bad guys are hiding in their dumpster. As of July 21, 2006, you will probably die if you harbor militants in south lebonon.

Lebonon should be on the phone with Isreal saying that we'll pinch them from the north, you keep coming from the south and we will weed out the radicals and hopefully find your soldiers on the way. Why is this not happening?

Because Lebonon can't trust it's own military to do the job. If they send in a unit to wack some militants, they don't know what will happen because their own military is about 50% on the militant side, and 50% loyal.

Maybe you're saying these people "Have Rights".. they shouldn't have to leave their house so that Isreal can rout out the militants. We could all have a big investigation and a trial to determine who has which rights, and in a few years, if we can get over 50% of the countries in the world to agree that "Militants are bad", then someone can lob a nerf ball across the fence at the militants.

Bomb on Isreal, Bomb ON.... Did anyone else notice that Isreal just got a new shipment of smart bombs from the good 'ol USA.. Sweet!!