Disproportionate Response

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 22 2006, 10:59 AM) [snapback]290542[/snapback]</div>

This is the registration information for that site:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 22 2006, 10:57 PM) [snapback]290621[/snapback]</div>

With all respect, but that's a simplistic view. Very simplistic. We are talking about war propaganda, here. Hezbolah and similar organisations have been telling for years that Israel is the ultimate evil. And they are on every street corner, every day. They run part of the infrastructure.

Yes, they are dumb. Dumb in the sense that 99% of the people are dumb. It would take a extraordinary courageous and independent person to see through that wall of indoctrination. More than what you can ask from an ordinary man. Do you think that they would even seriously consider what Isreal is telling them right now? Do you think that they will take up such a pamflet, read it and say, yes, that's correct?

All what man on the street sees right now is that Israel bombed their cities, and that Hezbollah is their champion, because they returned the fire. They don't know who has started what, and they even don't care. They don't care about the fact that it started by kidnapping Israeli soldiers on Israeli ground. All they know is that Israel is the "enemy". They have been indoctrinated for years by one side, and don't have the perspective to come to an independent conclusion. Should they die for that reason? If that's the case, then 99% of the people living in Germany after WWII should have been killed as well. Do you think all Russians were "evil" during communism?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 22 2006, 10:57 PM) [snapback]290621[/snapback]</div>

Yes, I actually believe that every person has rights. Especially innocent little people that live in a country that has been in war for the last 15 years, being the battleground for all kinds of violent influences, some good, some bad. I think they deserve better. If you would happen to be born there, I think you would agree.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 22 2006, 10:57 PM) [snapback]290621[/snapback]</div>

Let's put it straight. Israel doesn't give a $hit about Arab people. That's no problem. Nothing wrong with a leave-me-alone mentality. They suffer from terroristic attacks and try to find a way to solve this, which is their good right. They don't care at all if that kills an unknown number of innocent people in the mean time. One can still argue that that's no problem. After all, they didn't start it.
The only problem is: it won't help. The only way to continue this path is to keep bombing until the last Palestinian, Lebanese and perhaps Sirian died. Otherways, it's never going to be a safe place. Not if no valid alternative is offered.
Even then, the biggest threat comes from within: because of the demography, Isreal is slowly moving towards a nation with a Muslim majority. The ultimate horror. As I said before, the Arab's most dangerous weapon is the uterus. What will be the answer to that? Deportation? Genocide? Apartheid?

 

A very interesting commentary by one of Israel's foremost political commentators:

Excerpts:

The complete article can be read at HaAretz (registration required). A reprint can be accessed at Sydney Morning Herald site which does not require registration.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 22 2006, 11:49 PM) [snapback]290634[/snapback]</div>

I read a very similar analysis in a Belgian newspaper recently. And I think it's true. And it's amazing how well they succeeded! They achieved several goals at one time:
* They diverted the attention from the Iran problem.
* They created the opportunity to portray Israel once more as "the aggressor" in the Arab world.
* They have shown that Isreal can be hit. They kidnapped a few soldiers, killed a few others, and performed a succesfull rocket attack on a major city of Israel. That alone will present them as the champions of the Arab world, regardless of the countermeasures taken by Israel.

It's a trap indeed. And I never believe that Sharon would have fallen in it.

 

If what you said is true, then these 'innocent people' are the enemy. They've heard the hezbolla line of BS, bought on to it and are now "indoctrinated". If they're buy into the party line, then they are probably supportive of hezbolla and are sticking up for them. Birds of a feather get bombed together.

Do you think they'd start to believe the Isreali message that says to get out, we're going to bomb our enemies that are hiding in your neighborhood. Being indoctrinated like you say, the average person says.. No way, BS... Then the first bombs start to drop.... Did nobody connect the dots... Maybe it's true, they are going to bomb us.. hmmm...

My only reservation is that Isreal is not going to bomb enough early on and then the job will end up half finished. It is a good touch to get some of the infrastructure knocked down. It will delay the reestablishment of the enemy over the time after the conflict ends.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 22 2006, 08:28 PM) [snapback]290772[/snapback]</div>

...and if Israel suceeds in cutting off the supply of weapons and money from Syria and Iran, Hezbollah will no longer be able to "buy" loyalty by providing "services" that the Lebanese government should have been doing all along. Then hopefully, someone who truly cares about the Lebanese people can step in and actually clean the place up and make it a better place for all.

I am getting sick and tired of hearing how the Lebanese government was on the brink of a democratic society. Listening to those in the Hezbollah contolled areas makes it very apparent that the government of Lebanon left those people with nothing...and let Hezbollah build loyalty and strength. It is almost like there are two countries within one...Lebanon and Hezbollahnon. Israel has attacked Heabollahnon and the people loyal to them.

Lebanon has had the chance to do the right thing...and chose instead to integrate these terrorists into their country and government, knowing full well that Hezbollah would never stop its attacks. How can they then cry "innocent"? It's like inviting a known killer into your house, feeding him, protecting him, letting him use your house as a planning area for more killings...all in plain view of you and your family...and then when he gets caught...crying innocence for you and your family...GIVE ME A BREAK!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 23 2006, 05:28 AM) [snapback]290772[/snapback]</div>

Of course they support hezbolla. They are very popular over there. Most people have been beaten up so many times, and have virtually nothing. The hezbollah is presenting itself as their champion. Those people are mislead, and nobody has really cared to help them into another direction.
Considering them as an enemy for this reason is not only silly, but would be a big strategic mistake. By doing so, you actually cement that situation. You basically confirm what hezbollah has been telling for years. In this way, you make hezbollah so much stronger, because you push a whole civilisation into their arms. I'm glad that Israel obviously realise this better than you do. What you need to do is somehow create a separation between the people and hezbollah, by giving them an alternative. Only then you will be able to weaken them in the long term.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 23 2006, 05:28 AM) [snapback]290772[/snapback]</div>

So, to them that only confirms what hezbollah has been telling them for years: that Israel are the "bad guys".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 23 2006, 05:28 AM) [snapback]290772[/snapback]</div>

There is no job that can be finished in this way. Unless you are prepared for genocide and kill all the Arabs in the neighborhood. If you continue like that, you will just push more ordinary civilians into the arms of the extremists. In this way, they will stay an enemy and a threat forever. And sooner or later, they will have something that really hurts Israel. That's unavoidable, given the fact how fast these things spread. And their hate will be so deep that they will not hesitate to use it. It's only a matter of time, and you can't avoid no matter how much smart bombs you have.

Carefully targeted military action is necessary now indeed. But it needs to be followed immediately by fundamental actions to give those people a solid, alternative future. Everything possible must be done to isolate the extremists from the mainstream population. That's the only way to eliminate the enemy. The only thing you can do with bombs is punish the enemy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 22 2006, 01:59 PM) [snapback]290542[/snapback]</div>

Wow, how quick you are to dismiss that... No, of course it COULDN'T be the Israeli's could it? They'd NEVER do something like that... What is it, 248 and counting...

btw: "propaganda" is exactly what IsrAmeriPrius has been so subtly posting...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 22 2006, 05:39 PM) [snapback]290629[/snapback]</div>

So wait, if the website is anti-Israeli, it MUST therefore be part of some terrorist organization?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 23 2006, 09:24 AM) [snapback]290971[/snapback]</div>

Anti-Israeli is one thing, sending money to an anonymous paypal account just because you see horrific pictures is another...but go ahead Squid...maybe you will help them buy that dirty bomb so they can exact revenge on Israel and the West. I just hope your bomb shelter is up to snuff!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 23 2006, 09:12 AM) [snapback]290965[/snapback]</div>

prop·a·gan·da (prp-gnd) KEY

NOUN:

The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.

Sounds right to me...although propaganda may or may not be true. Just because one uses it, does not mean the information being disseminated is not true.


rhet·o·ric (rtr-k) KEY

NOUN:


The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.
A treatise or book discussing this art.
Skill in using language effectively and persuasively.


From Rhetoric by Aristotle

Thought you would find this interesting, as it pretty much is how most of your arguments go...

"Rhetoric may be defined as the faculty of observing in any given case the available means of persuasion. This is not a function of any other art. Every other art can instruct or persuade about its own particular subject-matter; for instance, medicine about what is healthy and unhealthy, geometry about the properties of magnitudes, arithmetic about numbers, and the same is true of the other arts and sciences. But rhetoric we look upon as the power of observing the means of persuasion on almost any subject presented to us; and that is why we say that, in its technical character, it is not concerned with any special or definite class of subjects.

Of the modes of persuasion some belong strictly to the art of rhetoric and some do not. By the latter I mean such things as are not supplied by the speaker but are there at the outset-witnesses, evidence given under torture, written contracts, and so on. By the former I mean such as we can ourselves construct by means of the principles of rhetoric. The one kind has merely to be used, the other has to be invented.

Of the modes of persuasion furnished by the spoken word there are three kinds. The first kind depends on the personal character of the speaker; the second on putting the audience into a certain frame of mind; the third on the proof, or apparent proof, provided by the words of the speech itself. Persuasion is achieved by the speaker's personal character when the speech is so spoken as to make us think him credible. We believe good men more fully and more readily than others: this is true generally whatever the question is, and absolutely true where exact certainty is impossible and opinions are divided. This kind of persuasion, like the others, should be achieved by what the speaker says, not by what people think of his character before he begins to speak. It is not true, as some writers assume in their treatises on rhetoric, that the personal goodness revealed by the speaker contributes nothing to his power of persuasion; on the contrary, his character may almost be called the most effective means of persuasion he possesses. Secondly, persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile. It is towards producing these effects, as we maintain, that present-day writers on rhetoric direct the whole of their efforts. This subject shall be treated in detail when we come to speak of the emotions. Thirdly, persuasion is effected through the speech itself when we have proved a truth or an apparent truth by means of the persuasive arguments suitable to the case in question."

So blast away Squid...we know your game!

 

Wow, look, CNN is reporting on the horrors caused by the Israeli's... This sort of news must REALLY rub CERTAIN people the wrong way... I'm sure some top exec's are gonna get the axe too... h34r:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/...tyre/index.html

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 23 2006, 12:55 PM) [snapback]290988[/snapback]</div>

You know, I've been here a year and two months, about 3.5 k posts, and have interacted with probably what 50-100 people, and of such, only 2 have gotten my "crazy" stamp.

Until now...

...make that three.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 23 2006, 12:36 PM) [snapback]290976[/snapback]</div>

I doubt it, for I'm sure Isrameri reported me to the Mossad a long time ago ( :lol: ), you know, for questioning the Israeli viewpoint and expressing sympathy for the Palestinians...


Oh yeah, here's a link to that CNN article again for those that might have been lost through the bs...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/...tyre/index.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 23 2006, 08:30 PM) [snapback]291249[/snapback]</div>

Ahhhh...C'mon, I am just messing with you! I know we are all horrified with what is going on over there...and you and I agree that what Israel is doing is most likely not going to work. The only thing we disagree on is whether or not they are justified for trying and the degree of "innocence" of the victims. Obviously, children are innocent victims no matter what...but some are put in that position by the vary people they rely on to keep them safe! NO ONE IS WITHOUT BLAME HERE - SHAME ON ALL OF THEM!

Can't we find some common ground and try to figure some constructive ideas to end this situation?




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 23 2006, 08:38 PM) [snapback]291249[/snapback]</div>

Actually, it has entered my mind once or twice that you are actually Danny, and he created your character to build controversy and get us hooked on the forum! :lol:

The earlier suspension was a great added touch!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 23 2006, 11:45 PM) [snapback]291257[/snapback]</div>

h34r:

Ok, FINE.

Well, shoot, let's start with the constructive ideas right here.

I won't even go first, let's see what everyone but me has to say...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 23 2006, 08:38 PM) [snapback]291249[/snapback]</div>

Believe it or not, I really do appreciate your viewpoints (aside from the added inflamatory stuff you like to toss in here and there).

Sometimes the "good" countries get too caught up in their "goodness" and try to change the world, thinking that everyone wants what they have.

We need people with other viewpoints to keep this in check and help balance things out, lest those "good" people go too far!

Yes, I actually gave you a complement...proving your statement.... I AM CRAZY

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 23 2006, 11:49 PM) [snapback]291261[/snapback]</div>

You win!

 

Another provocative Op-Ed article, this one by Jonathan Chait.

[Excerpts]

 

This is a general response to all those who claim or try to "equate" Hezbollah's actions with those of Israel.

They are not the same!

One is a legitimate state which is seeking to defend itself; the other is a non-aligned group whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel!

Yes, When Israel captures a members Hamas, Hezbollah, or whatever Arab/Muslim group is clamoring for Israel's destruction that day, it is arresting or capturing. Why because the state (that is of Israel) sanctioning of the capture allows for accountability and due process. (none of which occurs when Hamas or Hezbollah kidnap anybody)

Further, I am sure that I have NEVER seen a webcast of the IDF cutting the head off of a prisoner with a dull knife!!!

Innocents die in war and conflict, and no I don't care how many, if the conflict is being prosecuted with a stated goal! (i.e. the crippling of Hezbollah) Innocents back an ideology and they suffer the consequences. Just ask the Israeli's who have lived under the threat of Hezbollah rocket attack for the past 20 years.

Does it suck that innocents die, you bet, but I'm sure if Hezbollah (or any other Arab/Muslim terrorist group didn't build their bases of operations in or around hospitals and schools I'm sure many fewer would be killed. The terrorist, while inhuman, are not un-intelligent, they know that if they can take 10 or 20 "innocent" civilians with them when Israel or the US strikes at them, then the bleeding hearts will give the terrorists a PR victory for a military defeat.

The middle east conflict will not end until one side has killed so many of the other that the other begs for the other to stop. That is the history of the region, that is its current mode of operations!

The questions you have to ask yourself is in whose world would you want to live in?
One like Israel? or one like Iran? Be honest with your answers.

The Jews are the canaries in the coal mine. How the world treats them is how the world treats freedom. Whenever the jews are persecuted your freedoms are not far behind!

 

An interesting statistic:

 

Interesting stuff...from the Israeli side (FYI only)

IDF 1

IDF 2

IDF 3

IDF 4