Do You BELIEVE Islam is, in Essence, a "PEACEFUL" Religion?

Peaceful religions are few and far between. Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses are peaceful. None of the mainstream religions is peaceful. There are small peaceful sects within any religion, and Islam probably has some of its own. But Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are fundamentally violent religions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 30 2007, 06:24 PM) [snapback]432931[/snapback]</div>

History seems to indicate that Islamic forces were raiding Christian and Jewish areas for hundreds (I believe) of years before the Crusades. Also Islam is a combination of Political power and Religion never a good idea in my book.

Wildkow

 

I claim gray area and here's why....

I don't know if Islam is a peaceful religion. I do, however, have many Muslim friends, both Shia and Sunni, who are peaceful people. I have read most of the Quran, and it does indeed have many instances of violence. I have asked my friend Hassan how he can reconcile with this, and he basically says that, at present, radical individuals within Islam are using the religion in an attempt to seize power, such as in Iraq.

Hassan is a Shia Muslim from Saudi Arabia, a nation in which his kind are an absolute minority. He has expressed that there is some discrimination by the Sunni government and some of the lesser educated individuals within the general population; but, for the most part, people aren't killing one another. Many of the Shia students here live with Sunni students and are best friends. They work on projects together daily, eat dinner together nightly, and and even practice their faith side by side. They even give each other a hard time about their respective denomination, in much the same way that a Protestant may crack a joke about Catholics or vice versa. I truly believe Muslims like this are the rule rather than the exception.

Now, obviously there are some crazies out there who practice an extreme form of the faith, but I think most folks in, say, Iraq want the same things that we do- ability to live a decent life and provide the same or better for their children.

So, in summary, I don't think an entire group of human beings can be painted as peaceful or not based on a religion. Many (most) Muslims, in my estimation, are indeed peaceful individuals, regardless of whether or not this is the case for Islam. Just my two cents.

مع السلامة

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ewhanley @ Apr 30 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]433012[/snapback]</div>

Agreed. . .

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 30 2007, 10:33 PM) [snapback]432982[/snapback]</div>

Can you tell me where these violent acts of Christianity have happened? Most of the Christians I know are too busy helping people out to be violent.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 30 2007, 10:33 PM) [snapback]432982[/snapback]</div>

?????

I would say as a single Jewish person for being a "violent" religion Jews seems to have gotten the short end of the stick a little too often. Maybe if we stop being so "violent" are numbers would be greater, or perhaps people will stop throwing us in ovens, or perhaps countries will stop expelling us, or maybe perhaps they will stop suicide/homocide bombing our schools and pizzerias, etc

Tell me, name great violence the Jews have perpetrated on others over the past 5700 years? I am looking forward to this one immensely. Perhaps we treated the Romans to harshly :lol: Or we pissed off the Germans by kicking their asses too many times :lol: Or the Spainards got tired of us beating them up too :lol: Tell me - the last time a Jew kicked your peoples nice person was when :lol:

And then riddle me this, if Jews are so violent why do we remain with such small numbers of believers? I mean Judiasm has several thousand years head start on the other "violent" religions you mentioned - if Jews were so violent why would we allow the creation of other religions that "branch" off of ours, and why is our population so small while the other two "branches" have over ONE BILLION members?

And then tell me why the Founding Father's of this great country used basic JudeoCathlic principles in the formation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?

And tell me what you think of these radical aethiests - are they not violent too? Is it just for them to impose their beliefs on others - perhaps in the same fashion you think religions imposed their beliefs on others?

 

Considering the Abrahamic god killed everyone in the world at one point (the Noah story); I'd say they are all equally violent since they seem to be OK with it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ May 1 2007, 08:55 AM) [snapback]433149[/snapback]</div>

I did not know you believed in God not that that is important to me. But I do not see how God doing this, if it really happened, is evidence of a particular religion being violent. Is that not God being violent - and why did God act in such a way if you believe that particular story? What was Gods intent when he "formed" Judiasm - was it a desire to goodness or evil for peace or violence?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ewhanley @ Apr 30 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]433012[/snapback]</div>

Let me clarify my earlier post. I agree with ewhanly that most people are peaceful, and just want to get on with their lives, as we do.

But I distinguish between individual people and religious institutions, and the topic title asked about Islam as a religion, not about Muslims as people.

Both Christianity and Islam were spread throughout the world by the sword, and their respective authorities have historically imposed their dogmas by torturing and killing all those who resisted conversion. Both also have long histories of internal sectarian warfare. The entire history of both religions is a history of expansion by war. Judaism is not an evangelical religion, and does not seek to convert people, but to the extent that events in the OT are historical, they are a record of the slaughter of nations in order to take their land, and the religious parties in Israel are the most hawkish. Berman insists this violence is necessary, and in making this argument he confirms my point that Judaism, like Christianity and Islam, is a violent religion. All three religions support their wars by sending priests, pastors, mullahs, or rabbis to go along with the soldiers and exhort them to fight, or at least to explain to them why god wants them to violate the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," which, being in the OT, is scriptural and fundamental to all three faiths.

Note that all three religions have deeply peaceful tenets, and all three demand that their adherents practice charity and kindness, but at the same time all three rely on and justify violence for their propagation and/or preservation.

A peaceful religion would look like Quakerism. All three religions have such sects within them, but they are such small minorities as not to be descriptive of the religions as a whole.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ozyran @ May 1 2007, 04:28 AM) [snapback]433117[/snapback]</div>

The Crusades? The Spanish invading America? The Inquisition? The Salem Witch Trials? And for a more modern take, Northern Ireland.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 1 2007, 10:57 AM) [snapback]433214[/snapback]</div>

do you ever read what you write?

Explain how Judiasm is a violent religion again for the slow of thinking like me because you lost me completely. Whether or not a Jew can be violent is not prima fascia evidence that Judiasm is a violent religion - would you not expect Israel to defend itself and its 1,000,000 Arab citizens who VOLUNTARILY live there and are able to practice their religion in peace (tell me - where is the like found in a Muslim country in the middle east - think about that one). You reference hawkish parties in Israel - how does that make Judiasm a violent religion (you should study what those parties call for) - and you FAIL TO MENTION the peace parties in Israel along with all the PEACE governments they have elected (again, tell me where you find the comparable peace movements and peace governments in muslim dominated middle east countries - think about this too).

Rabbis going along in battle with soldiers to exhort them? ARE YOU NUTS OR WHAT - PROVE IT. Perhaps rabbis are there for religious reasons because in my religion you have to be buried within 24 of your death even in combat - perhaps genius they are there to offer comfort to the soldiers who are wounded and who are dying or perform religious ceremonies to those that have fallen???

again, you say all three religions rely on violence for propagation - it is AGAINST my religion to try to convert others. Violence is against the basic tennent of Judiasm - try reading our Torah or Talmud - you might even learn a thing or two. And no, i am not, i would not ever, try to convert you - ever - ever - ever. nothing personal - stay away - we have enough trouble with those already in the building if you know what i mean - that is kinda of a way of poking fun at my religion for those that might understand my meaning behind that statement.

you fail to mention Buddism and Toaism - they have a few members - and for that matter most religions have more "members" than Judiasm - so why do you even refer to it as a major religion. Name a smaller one?

but you sure have caused me one huge headache - and dont forget to address my other comments above instead of ignoring them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 30 2007, 07:33 PM) [snapback]432982[/snapback]</div>

Two atheists in a couple of decades in time have killed more people than all the Christians, or Jews ever have through out history: Stalin and Mao.

Wildkow

 

Most religions are peaceful in their goals and message. It is the implementation of religion in practice that has created much of the violence and that is a function of individuals within the religions, or outside, depending on perspective.

It isn't about religion or the lack that creates problems. It is when we think it is necessary to look into other peoples "bedrooms", and decree what is right and wrong when no harm is done that creates most problems, ultimately.

Wars are fought for power, sex, greed, and resources. Whether or not a particular religion is for or against a war makes no difference. Currently it is the muslims who are in disfavor in the US... When I was a child the communists were the bad guys and when we played "guns" as a kid, the bad guys were called the germans or the japs, and that is just the way it was back in the early 1960s when our parents had fought in WW2.

Ther are always "bad guys" and they simply take on new public personas depending upon the times in which we live.

What is wrong in my opinion, is forcing someone else to believe as we do. The Jewish people are no better or worse than any of the rest of us and are perhaps the worlds greatest victoms in terms of seeming to always come out on the opressed side of the coin. However in general being opressed seems to ultimately be rather profitable... And before someone jumps me, my brother is Jewish so don't even think of going there.

We all have a right to out beliefs and to have our beliefs respected and tolerated so long as they do not infringe upon the beliefs of others.

 

I find it intresting tthat the below link breaks down religions around the world into %'s... :mellow:
Look at how large the Muslim sect is.. Dam thats alot of people worshiping a religion based on Muhammad's teachings .

Geeze the research goes on & on............ :blink:

 

Here is the demographic: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tnthub @ May 1 2007, 11:38 AM) [snapback]433247[/snapback]</div>

It is good that your brother is Jewish - does that make your written opinions free from scrutiny or does that make you impervious to being an anti-semite?

Prove to me how the Jewish people are so violent - where is it in our history that we conquered (that would be a nice change), we enslaved (also a nice change if we werent), etc, etc.

You say we are the worlds greatest victims for coming out on the oppressed side of the coin - your words - tell me was that by choice or circumstance? Do you think we like being conquered, oppressed, mass murdered - i mean you can always ask your Jewish brother if you need some insight..... i did go there, and not sorry about it. i could not give a s**t about your brothers religion - and what difference does it make - unless the obvious -- you use it as a shield to try to protect your thoughts from scrutiny... so offer up all the violence of the Jewish people - you have 5700 years of history to go through - i am sure you can find a whole lot of stuff - again - if not - perhaps your Jewish brother can point you in the correct direction.

that part about "The Jewish people are no better or worse than any of the rest of us and are perhaps the worlds greatest victoms in terms of seeming to always come out on the opressed side of the coin." is a winner - you have to tell me how you came up with this one. maybe having nearly 2/3rds of our population killed by the Nazi's is a start while the world watched? do you believe the Holocaust even happened?

it is alive and well and amongst us...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Apr 30 2007, 09:36 PM) [snapback]432983[/snapback]</div>

Eastern Orthodox Christianity was also a combination of political power and religion (head of religion = head of state). And yeah, it never is a good idea.

I don't think religion and people's peacefulness have much in common. Peaceful people can be found in all religions and in atheism, and violent people can be found in all religions and in atheism (except perhaps those Quakers and Buddhists). The biggest problem is that when one religion feels threatened, the number of violent people in that religion usually increases. Currently, Islam is a religion which feels threatened by the overwhelmingly more powerful western 'christian' nations, and so more people of Islamic faith are violent in this current time period. To a lesser extent, many of the Jewish faith in Israel feel threatened by their Islamic neighbors and so they too have more violent tendencies (in the form of military brute strength against the Palestinians), but more on that later. The crusades happened at a time when Christianity felt threatened by Islamic nations which were making inroads into far southeastern Europe (Byzantine was overthrown by the Ottomans, and so on). At any extent, it isn't the religion that is violent, it is the people that feel threatened from outsiders.

Concerning the Jewish discussion: yeah, they have had the short end of the stick and there is probably no single religious group that has been treated worst in the last 2000 years. The vast majority of Jewish people have always been a peaceful group. They were largely Peaceful in Europe for hundreds of years despite being outnumbered and targeted, they were largely peaceful in the Middle East for most of the last couple thousand years where they have lived largely outnumbered beside Islamic groups, and they are largely peaceful, on a worldwide basis, today. This is quite remarkable since they have always been threatened. But in the last fifty years, with the creation of Israel and the support of the UN and the US, Israel has been violent towards expanding what they perceive as their God-given land into areas that Islam followers have lived and made their home for hundreds of years. I don't think Israel has any right to claim land from Islamic families, despite the history. The creation of Israel has created a large mess - Islamists are threatened, Jews feel threatened, and violence persists. There needs to a solution that respects the rights of the Palestinians to live in their communities. The fact that religion has been so intertwined into the rhetoric between Israel and its neighbors is hurting any chance of moving forward - they are all PEOPLE, and Israel and Palestinians need to recognize that. Israel has the bigger stick and so should be the target of a lot of the criticism of violence.

Stalin and Mao have killed more people than all of the christians and or jews combined through history??? The challenge of crunching the last several thousands of years of violence makes that assertion utterly impossible. Also, did Stalin and Mao kill in the name of atheism, or in the name of Communism and there own power??? There is nothing of any relevance to religion here.

 

Here you go...

My room mate in high school, and still one of my closest friends is Jewish. I could care less what a person believes as their religion as it is their business, not mine. The exception is when someone makes it my business.

If I lived in a bad neighborhood (think middle east), and my life and beliefs were threatened because of bad neighbors, I would move, rather than stay and participate in a viscious circle of violence. I understand we should all have the right to live anywhere and worship what we choose, but sometimes reality is different than utopia and I would adjust my choice of realestate to reflect some common sense.

Yes the Jewish people have been victimized time and time again, and it is wrong that this has happened. The atrocities committed by the Nazi's against the Jews can never be atoned for, but it is time to move on and focus on today and the fact that with the exception of personal beliefs, and some select DNA lineage, there are no discernable differences between Jewish people and anyone else in this world.

I'm tired of hearing how the Jews are always getting the short end of the stick. To me religion is between a person and their beliefs and if someone makes it my business to know their beliefs I will listen, often learn, and almost always come to respect their point of view. However when I see small demographic factions, (demographically), such as Jews and homosexuals, receiving a huge percentage of news time, astronomically large percentages of populations in particular industries, and extremely high amounts of discussion, sometimes well beyond groups ten times their demographic I do stop and wonder what is going on with the world.

So you are Jewish? That is great. I respect that and wish you nothing but the best. I also wish that you would not play the downtrodden and beat upon card when establishing your place in society. I was brought up to believe that anyone born in the US could be president. That means you could be President, Jewish, Atheist, or whatever your faith may be. I was brought up to believe all people are equal (although based on circumstance we may not all have equal opportunities). I was brought up to believe that I am no better and no worse than any other person born on this earth and have no more or no less "rights" than anyone else.

My family was captured by Indians back in the 1600s, taken to Canada and sold as slaves. Some died trying to retain their freedom and there are 14 graves outside my family home where they were buried. I see no need to dwell on what happened back then or use it as an excuse for anything that happens today. It is my responsibility as a person to do the best that I can do and to generalize because of historical precedence only discredits my efforts. I believe we should take some personal responsibility for our own well being, treat other people as we would like to be treated, practice tolerance and respect, and get on with our lives.

I assume this makes me no different than you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tnthub @ May 1 2007, 12:25 PM) [snapback]433279[/snapback]</div>

You said Judiasm is a violent religion - prove it.