Does the Prius still make sense when midsize-car Hybrids are getting almost 50mpg?(Accord Hybrid)

I think the question should not be "Does the Prius still make sense when........." , but rather "What can/is Toyota doing to continue to keep ahead of the competition?"

It's all a question of diminishing returns.
Jumping from a 25mpg Accord to a 50mpg 'HYA' would save 300 gallons @ 15,000 miles/yr
Jumping from a 50mpg Prius to a true 100mpge PIP would save 150 gallons @ 15k/yr

My guess is that making either jump would cost about the same $$, but the Accord owner would be much more motivated.
That's huge......because there are a lot of Accord and mid-size drivers out there.

Some cited room as the reason for wanting a Prius.
What would you say if Honda comes out with an Accord Wagon plug-in?
What if the plug-in premium on said car paid for itself in less than 5 years?
It's not out of the possibility.
Honda's IMA may not be as sophisticated as HSD, but you can buy an Accord plug-in today, while a Camry plug-in is not even a concept.


I am reminded of every time I stop at a stoplight next to a Yaris or a Versa of how lucky I am to be driving a car that is simultaneously both larger and more efficient than the one right next to me.

If Toyota is not careful, then one day an Accord Wagon plug-in could pull up to a Prius and think the exact same thing!

 

Can't vouch for the 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid but..my previous car was a 1990 Honda Accord LX 4 door sedan with automatic. It was built like a tank and it had a very cushy quite ride but it was slow (0-60 in 14 seconds) , was not a particularly good at holding stuff, and it only got 22 mpg. No airbags an antilock brakes but it only costed me $13,500 ... and dirt cheap to insure at $50/month.

Cleanmpg.com forum reports that the 2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid gets an overall fuel efficiency of about 42 mpg

Over the last three years I have been learning how to hypermile on a 2010 Toyota Prius III - my overall mileage is about 60 mpg over the last 38000 miles/+3 years. My decision to buy a Prius over the Insight was not based on cost or MPG rating but on what I perceive which vehicle had the best support group/knowledge base/driver community. My research indicated that hybrids performed best when hypermiled as oppose to being driven like a racing vehicle or a off road vehicle. Because there is no course/class/book that you can take to learn this driving skill you must learn from other drivers who own the car and are willing to help you out. It helps that these other more skilled drivers either own or have driven the same vehicle that you are driving.

So to learn hypermiling - the Prius won hands down and the funny thing is - it is still true today albeit the Prius c is a better choice than the Prius Liftback for learning how to hypermile - but that's splitting hairs...

However - to get back to the original poster's question
Fuel efficiency and MRSP should never be the only criteria for selection off a vehicle.
No vehicle make economic sense - except for a few exceptions -- motor vehicles depreciate
quickly and are a bad investment - we buy vehicles to move people and thing ...

The Prius is at its best for driving +7 mile trips in flat terrain and gently hilly straight smooth roads. The Prius fuel efficiency suffers on short trips of less than 5 miles, rough road surfaces, and very hilly or mountain grade roads.

The Accord Hybrid and the Camry Hybrid don't have to even get 50 mpg to make sense to a buyer.
Both cars offer a more reserve climbing power and a softer quieter ride in exchange for lower fuel efficiency. . If you get to grow older than 55 years and you still have your hearing and vision then
that sort of ride characteristics starts looking and being more important.

 

For people mentioning IMA, it's not relevant to the Accord hybrid which is another 2 motor system.
My orediction is more hybrid sales and stealing sales off the Fusion more than the TCH..
Honda does some excellent engineering and I'd fully exlect the Accord to deliver. Unlike the HCH it'll be assembled in the USA, so the price shouldn't be too horrible.

 

What's funny about the fuel efficiency discussions is that many, many cars got stellar mileage way, way long ago. One of my first cars was a new 1977 Corolla, I had a Plymouth Turismo 2.2 (Dodge Charger 2.2), VW Scirocco (The last German One), and a German Mercury Capri with the 2.8, and a 2004 Corolla that got way better mileage than their next generation Some of those cars got 40 plus mpg on the highway. Granted, they weren't huge cars, and weren't burdened with the gazillions of pounds of safety equipment like airbags and enormous dash panels. Pretty light on electronics as well. But I was usually driving a car where fuel economy was not even a concern, even at 25 cents a gallon or $1.

What will bring hybrids into the mainstream in terms of large numbers, is for consumers to see they aren't really any different. I remember the days of the introduction of the 5 mph bumper, the ghastly beginnings of the catalytic converter, and everything through today. What consumers want is a reason. Some of the premiums are not nearly as high as they used to be. But due to size, many will compare, say, a Ford Focus to a Cmax or Prius.

If Honda can do what's been claimed, I sincerely hope they succeed. It will simply spur competition to work harder, and eventually, sales will increase all around. But the perception of hybrids needs to be the same more or less as any other car. If people think it's incredibly high to get materially better mileage, they won't buy one. For new customers, I'll bet they'd be shocked at driving a new Camry Hybrid. It's not Weird in any way.

Now Motor Trend did their test in Japan of the HAH. Love those acronyms

They claimed

Interesting tests, and well-explained as well.

 

Thanks for the MT link reviewing the HAH - it looks like somebody in Honda woke up.

Finally - it looks like Toyota has some competition. It's about time.

HAH has a bigger 2.0L 4 cylinder Atkinson cycle engine( the Prius uses a 1.8 Liter engine), a Li-Ion battery pack (only the PiP has a Li-Ion battery pack), and it sounds like the HAH CVT is designed with a taller top gear ratio (6 speed) than the Prius. IF the HAH curb weight isn't too high and the frontal surface area( and Cd ) is similar to a Prius THEN the HAH should beat the regular Prius overall EPA MPG of 50 mpg and be competitive with the PiP wrt to fuel efficiency. However, with all this superior tech - the HAH is likely to cost more than a Prius or a PiP.

 

As it should. But it will be the first sedan of it's size to achieve that kind of mileage. Many Pruiuses on the lots today are $25k to over $30 k. My guess is that the market for a larger Accord sedan with that kind of mileage is at least as big as the Camry Hybrid. I hope that the HAH does a better job of achieving those results than the Fusions do. If they don't, Honda would be well advised to publish good Achievable numbers.

 

Source? I haven't paid much attention to the price speculation but 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid to Get EPA 47 MPG Combined - KickingTires says

 

You killed your battery this week? Are you sure?

 

what if the hyacc gets 50mpg epa, and two years later, they have to tone down the battery so it won't fizzle out before the warranty is up?

 

If Honda Accord Hybrid came in a wagon, it *might* take some Prius market.

 

I loved my '86 Accord Hatchback. Kept it 23 years, until I got a 2010 Prius.

But I don't do regular sedans. Will the Accord Hatchback return? If not, I'm not interested.

BTW, that old Accord reappeared last year, a mere six blocks away. As of last week, it had gained another 50,000 miles and some road rash, but appears to be running well. Last month, I saw it loaded with 7 bicycles!

 

Well not in a real sense...My trips in heat and humidity were so short, stop and go, that the 2 bars combined with slow speeds never got the EV working. A few drives to the bank are about 2 miles round trip. Took a long trip yesterday, about 20 miles LOL Mileage went up 4 mpg overall on the tank.

The mileage went down more sitting in the driveway with the ac on waiting for car to be loaded.

 

That will be a real problem if it does happen. The HCH-II battery problems has hurt its sales and its popularity. Ford shot itself in the foot by over promising fuel efficiency ed EPA on the C-Max hybrid. It's not that non hybrids don't have their share of problems, but I would rather no one give the anti-hybrid Top Gear like movement anything to work with.

 

The original question is a subjective one not an objective one.

For me, the Accord would not be worth it unless it got real life mpg that was the same or better than the real life mpg of the Prius. But my priorities are not the same as others. For example, some might prefer it IF it turned out that that the manufacturing carbon footprint of the Prius were higher than the carbon footprint of the fuel savings (I am not saying this is the case, just using this as an example of different priorities).

For the market at large? As others have said, we will have to see. No one person can answer for everyone, although we can make guesses.

 

The OP is making wild claims that the battery dies if your drive in stop and go traffic. Not only don't we have data that this is so, we did not even have any anecdotes except yours. I am unclear why you would perpetuate this FUD.

As Bob Wilson points out, taxis drive 300,000+ miles in exactly those conditions. It has not been a trend anyone (else) has documented.

 

Repeated events of overheating (>200 degrees Fahrenheit) can harm the HV invert-battery system but one would have to disable the HV inverter- battery cooling system to do this. In Greece, this happened to several 3rd gen Prius in a taxi fleet because

1) they did not use the air conditioner and had the windows rolled down during the summer.
2) the air cooling intake vents that are located inside on the right side of the rear seats were blocked.

The Prius manual says you need to keep the air cooling intake vents clear and open - failure to obey this requirement can lead lead to premature failure of the HV inverter battery system.

This reminds of one of my College days acronym -- RTFM.

 

Here are several tricks I've learned...

For short trips - put your Prius throttle mode to "PWR" and don't use "EV" - especially if you are using the AC. All the electricity in the hybrid is recaptured energy - and you won't generate enough electricity on short trips to justify using the EV mode. Keep the HV intake air cooling vents clear and open.

If you are looking for better fuel efficiency on 1-2 mile trips (design your route so you can) keep your top speed at about 25 mph and slow down to 12 mph before hitting the brakes

if you cold start your Prius but have to remain parked (without the AC , heater or defroster on ) you can delay the engine from starting and burning gas by moving from Park to Neutral ( instead of Drive or Reverse). immediate after starting up t he Prius (pressing the on button and the brake pedal simultanously) while keeping the parking brakes on.

If you drive several short trips in sequence less than 30 minutes apart - the residual energy from the previous trips help increase the MPG/fuel efficiency of the succeeding following trips.

 

There are several ifs that need to be sorted out first. Assuming the Accord hybrid gets its EPA rating, is priced around the Camry and Fusion hybrids, and doesn't compromise the trunk too much. Then it could steal sales from the Prius. I have always thought hatchbacks were versatile cargo movers, but the majority of Americans prefer a sedan when it comes to cars. We've had to bulk wagons up and call them crossovers in order to sell them here.

Honda has hurt their hybrid rep with Civic hybrid battery issues. By the time they over that, the gen4 Prius will arriving soon or already here.

 

We've got an '06 Civic Hybrid, still in the family, with an IMA battery that's going through the recalibration sequence pretty much daily. It's had the software updates, on the face of it to protect the battery, and for some strange reason also making it damn near impossible for the car to throw a code.

I wouldn't even entertain getting another Honda, until another generation of hybrids has come and gone, and they've demonstrated a willingness to stand behind their products.

 

No true midsize Hybrid (non plu-in) is getting 50 MPG, none. Accord Hybrid, coming in October, *might* get 47 MPG, but I seriously doubt it. At 3,500 lbs, 196 HP and who knows what Cd, I think it might get a 43 combined....

The issues with 2006 - 2009 Civic Hybrid concern me. Was told by service rep with 18 yrs exp they were changing out Civ Hy batteries which updated software, then the cars would only get about 32 MPG or so and there was nothing the dealers could do about it.

But, I test drove an Accord Sport today, and it's just a much more satisfying car to be in, at least for me, although it is definitely not luxury car quiet. The Sport has 18" wheels and 235 tires which might elevate tire noise a bit.

I will be looking to get in a position to get out of the Prius in a timely manner (maybe a year or so) and I won't be looking back.

We'll see about the Accord Hybrid.