Down to the Rapture

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Feb 15 2007, 07:08 PM) [snapback]391193[/snapback]</div>

For an all-knowing being, it seems awfully strange that your god - supposedly all-knowing, all-seeing... can't seem to keep his facts straight:

Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


Address this for me, please:

I propose to you that these examples I have put forth show that your god did not have anything to do with the bible or the scriptures - it was all made by man... because these errors reflect human errors - not something an all-knowing, all-seeing being would make. I mean, who ever heard of a god that can't keep his facts straights, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?????

Sounds like an awfully human thing to do... catch my drift?

I am waiting.

Oh, and loveit, daron, and priusguy - please feel free to address these points I came up with. Nothing but respectful debate! Au contraire, it's just begun!

 

Like a shadow, it can only be seen when there is light cast upon an object. But if there is no light, and you can't see the shadow, does that mean there is no object?

Not necessarily so.

Likewise, all the things that took place in the old testament, was just a shadow of the things to come.

In Psalm 23, "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for Thine art with me, Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me"

The world that we live in now is a type of shadow that is to come but so much different, and so much better. It will definitely pass away, and all things will be made new. There will be a new heaven, and a new earth.

As God did away with the old covenant and made a new one through Jesus; this covenant supercedes the old one, in the way that there was one last and final sacrifice made for all of man's sins: the shed blood of Jesus.

Likewise, there will be a new heaven and new earth, for the former things, (heaven & earth), will be no more. The heavens will part, and the earth will be burned up with fire.

Like the wind, you cannot see it, but you can feel its effects. You don't know where it has come from, and you don't know where it where go.

But just because it is not visible to the eye doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

There are a number of Christians who are much in the public eye. I don't know how they live their lifestyle in private, but some of the things that have been bought to light is very revealing.

I once heard it said by a man in my church, that he was forgiven by the Lord because even after he accepted Jesus as Savior there were occasions where he stumbled and fell so to speak. I know that he spoke for many because they too were in the same boat; but then he said a profound thing, Jesus died even for those sins too. How did he know? Jesus own words, "It is finished," meaning that all sins were forgiven once and for all.

"A broken and contrite spirit God will not despise", and "a bruised reed He will not break."

God knows that man is but dust. No matter how hard Christians try, there will be no perfection in them until the Lord comes back to redeem them.

People who have talked about the Lord as the love of their life, and then have stumbled and fell, it hurts. But those who seek the Lord's forgiveness, the Lord promises that person, that his sin is as far from the east as it is from the west, and He remembers them no more.

But on the other hand, in Proverbs, it also says: "That when a man's ways, (the way he does things/treats people), begins to please the Lord, then He will be at peace with his enemies."

This basically means that it is possible to say: "Let's agree to disagree."

Like I said before, faith/belief without works is dead. I will show my faith by the "works" that I do. Lip service is a whole lot easier than being a servant.

God calls us to be servants to one another; and they will know that we are Christians by our love for one another.

So, yes, this is what Daron was talking about when he said that you will know them by the fruit that a person bears.

I cannot judge anyone, but I can tell them that my life with the Lord is one of blessing as well as hardship at various times in life.

If my life is to be like/similar to the Lord, and I share in the blessing, I also know that there will be suffering too.

One day, the Lord promises that He will wipe away every tear.

Now, Mirza, God bought Abraham up out of the land of his father, a land where people worshipped many gods. For these worshippers, in order to obtain favor from these gods, they would served them with endless sacrifices, offerings, and demeaning rituals.

Back then, that was all the people knew. Evidently Abram and Sarai were not looking for another god, but God found them.

Why would Abram and Sarai leave their homeland and follow a God they didn't know? (Abram was 75 at this time, and Sari about 65.)

Very obvious, God showed His glory to Abram. "He told Abram, 'Leave your country, our relatives, and your father's house, and go to the land that I will show you. I will cause you to become the father of a great nation. I will bless you and make you famous, and I will make you a blessing to others. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. All the families of the earth will blessed throught you.'"

He has a personal encounter with the Living God; and so because of this encounter, and the promise that God had made to him. Abram left his homeland and went out not knowing where is was going but was walking by faith to a land promised to him by God.

So out of polytheism, monotheism was born.

It takes a divine encounter with the Holy God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob before one will commit to living for just One God alone, the Only True God there is, because there is none other.

That's all Christians really want people to know, is God; and to know how Wonderful, and Marvelous He is.

I don't know if this helps but maybe.

 

Thank you for taking your time to type that up... but the other points I bring up have not been addressed... (top of this page)... I am sure if you were truly devoted you'd go the distance and debate for the chance that you might have a person saved, no?

(remember: top of this page)

But thank you for addressing polytheism.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Feb 15 2007, 06:45 PM) [snapback]391186[/snapback]</div>

Has anyone else noticed Mizra's starting to act like a


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Feb 15 2007, 07:00 PM) [snapback]391191[/snapback]</div>

Thanks windstrings~

Your 100% correct!

I think I was needing to regroup, deep breath...

So who's into Stroking feathers? :lol:

I really am not trying to be nasty with them, if I do, Ive broken the bottom rule of my Signature

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Feb 15 2007, 06:32 PM) [snapback]391198[/snapback]</div>

This may take some dialog to understand what exactly you don't understand.

Christ was with the Father from the beginning of eternity, created the world, came here to live and die for us, went back to heaven, will be back to the earth.

When He was on the earth, did he have powers beyond natural man? Yeah.. Many times he knew things that you and I wouldn't know. He told the woman at the well her whole history more or less. He was fully God, but fully man. Can I get my mind all the way around that?

How about God always having been, and always will be... How about you and me... always going to be... whether in heaven or hell in torment. How long is 80,000 years of torment? I do not know, but it's a start. Kinda sobering how long an eternity of that is.

There are many things I can't get my mind around about God. I'm sure it was intended to be that way. I do have faith that God is who He says He is, and if I don't quite understand it, then it's pretty likely me, and not Him that has a gap in the understanding.

I didn't take the time to see if there is any context about the statements you give. God the Father certainly was greater than the Son when the Son was on earth. If the Son was equal to God when He was here, no human would be able to live and have seen Him face to face. Christ was certainly self limiting on His God side when he was here as a man. He also had the power of God to heal and know things that a man couldn't know. I don't exactly know the gig on that, but I trust it was done right and any gaps in understanding are with me.

I completely believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 seperate persons and also one God. If we had an example of a species of fish or plants that did this, we could probably more clearly understand it. So, we can't quite grasp it, I trust it to be who God is and figure I'll understand it more when I am 35,000 years into eternity with God.

I also can't say I have a real clear understanding of the eternal perfected bodies we'll have, or what ya do with your time in heaven. Do we eat, if so, do we need to grow crops... do we have people who make machines, do we spend all our time on our face worshiping Christ, or how does it really go? I don't really have clearity on that. I've heard a few preachers give perspective, but I don't think they really know either. I'm excited to find out. I have a humble fear of the alternative. If anything I believe is true, then it is true that people are dieing every day and entering an eternity in hell. It is awesome to consider the eternity that person stepped into when they took their last breath.

 

Fair enough.

How about this... question posed to priusguy04 and/or windstrings... (it will make sense later)... how many legs does an insect have?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Feb 15 2007, 08:51 PM) [snapback]391214[/snapback]</div>

6

Coming from you Im sure its a TRICK Question, but I will play along.. <_<

 

Mirza... its not my job to try and make anything at all make sense to you!

Do you realize that?

YOu act as if you "demand" answers from me?????

I take out of my personal time and family time to try and make sense to you and I think you deserve no more of my attention until I hear different.

YOu are not asking questions of sincerity but only to cause contention....

Your a big boy "or girl" and you don't need me to hold your hand while you go to the bathroom and read your bible... if you cannot comprehend plain english, then I am not on your wavelength, you can ask someone else....

Its one thing if you ask an honest question, but you have no intentions or being converted right?.. admit it! unless your a coward!!!

I am not all knowing... I do not know all things, but God does...
So I'll tell you what.. you ask God and since you can't hear him speak, he will talk to someone who can and they can tell you.. hows that?

YOu can ask God yourself and study on your own time... thats what I had to do to know what I know....

From now on, you ask God to your answers because you can't hear them from me.

Maybe someone else will feel impressed to try and answer your unending questions, but thats not what God is about "understanding him".....

How can you be so pious to feel that unless he explains everything to you, you will not accept him?
Even when something is explained to you, you still can't comprehend anyway?

He only speaks to the humble and those who seek.... your arrogance I would have to answer out of my own mental facilities as I don't hear God answering you..

I have gone to great lengths to answer your questions and they are not met with "thanks" or any gratitude, but only more arrogance..... answer your own questions... thats what you do anyway, so why should I or God try to interfere as you only bow down to your own understanding anyway... which means you bow down to a very small god?

Its my turn for questions......
Why don't you answer one question for me for a change..... If I die and I'm wrong, what will I have lost?.. If you die and are wrong, you will have lost eternity......

How about another question?..... if you live your whole life to your total satisfaction, when you die, what have you gained?

Remember things you can't take with you don't qualify for things you've gained..... if you die with no more existence nor memory, you may has well had never been born anyway... let along have all your desires on earth fullfilled?

When you leave this earth, who will you look for and who do you hope to meet?... why?... will they be able to comfort you if no God exist?

One more question?... Why is it so hard for you to believe in anything?... and who has hurt you so bad?

Do you really think "nothing" created all this and keeps it in order?...

One last question... do you think you have the ability to go back and answer just one of my questions honestly without trying to decieve yourself from the truth?... I said "honestly".. maybe you should go look that up in the dictionary too before you answer?...

Do you even know Truth?...... how do you know your truth is truth verses a lie?
Where is your standard and rule to measure by?

Do you know what Truth is?... go look that up too while your at it......

Thanks for the reply......

 

Mirza, do you worship a god? If so, by what name do you call him?

I'll try and answer your question as best can. I don't want to argue with you. If you really want to know, I will tell you what it is that I know about the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit being one.

Is that fair?

Everything you see here on earth is just a shadow of what is in the heavenly or spirit realm.

The bible is very consistent but it may not seem that way to you now. Although it was written several thousand years ago by many men, that is what is so remarkable about it.

Some things seem very contradictory. But it is like a very gigantic meal which must be eaten one bite at a time.

And it is the only book that has existed for all these years, and it is still a best seller.

It is like when there is a case in court. You have a witness and then you have testimony. The the witness and testimony maybe 2 entirely different people; but they still testify to the same thing. That is called collaboration. Same thing with the bible.

Same thing with The Trinity. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are 3 persons in one, also called The Godhead.

The Father has bestowed on the Son, the same rights as He, Himself has. Now, the Son came in the flesh. A person with a body just like yours and mine; but He had the life of God His Father, living inside of Him.

When Jesus' body was put to death by crucifixion, He went to hades and bought the release of those who had died before Him and took them to be in paradise. Then He was resurrected on the third day by God's own Spirit. Each of us has a spirit. It is the living part of us, the essence of who we are that will never die.

The bible says, that God has set eternity in the hearts of men. Man was originally created to live forever That was God's intent and purpose so that God might have fellowship with man.

Getting back to the point. When Jesus came back to life on the 3rd day, He spoke to Mary Magadalene and told her not to touch Him as He had not ascended unto heaven to enter the Holy of Holies to make atonement for all of mankind's sins.

Once Jesus did that, He came back to earth and presented Himself to the disciples and stayed with them for 40 days. Teaching them more. When 40 days were up He ascended back up into the heavens to sit at the right hand of God.

Jesus told the disciples that they were to go to Jerusalem and to wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit. The Father's very own spirit would be pour out upon them, and into their hearts so that they would always have the help and comfort of the Holy Spirit to live a life that is pleasing to God. God would help them do that very thing. This is called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

There is a baptism by water, which is what Jesus did; but the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus in the form of a dove, after the water baptism is a symbol of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which was to come at the day of Pentecost, upon the disciples/believers.

The power of the Holy Spirit is God's power residing in a believer. So when you see people that are healed of diseases, illnesses, sickenesses, and deformities, and clothed in their right mind, it was done by the Power of God, and not of the believer himself. The believer is JUST A VESSEL OR CONTAINER FOR THE POWER OF GOD TO RESIDE AND FLOW IN THROUGH him to minister healing, and health to those to whom He, God, chooses to do so. He says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy."

But the Holy Spirit was also given to men to live a life pleasing to God.

So you see, The Father is the Head of the Household in Heaven, but the Son has all the rights to which the Father has given to Him by way of the fact that Jesus is His Son. But Jesus is His Son, He was obedient to the Father by laying His life down for all mankind when He died for our sins. The Holy Spirit is a very precious gift from God, it is God's very own Spirit that He imparts to us so that we may live in fellowship with Him not only here on earth but in the age to come.

Look at it this way if you want. Water can be a liquid, solid as ice, or a vapor. Just because it is in a different form does not mean that the source is different; it is not. It is one and the same source. Same can be said for The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. In that aspect they are all the same but each of their functions is different and for good reason.

Also, if you go to several different churches on a given Sunday where the pastor and the congregation feverently, and wholeheartedly worship the Lord, both in truth and in spirit, you will find that the Lord will tell basically the same thing to each pastor; and so all the sermons will run along the same line. That is the power of the Holy Spirit working to teach, equip, and edifiy the body of believers.
But the plumb line is, that whatever the pastor preaches, his sermon must line up with the word of God.

This is basically what happened over a period of several thousand years when the bible was written. Maybe different versions but the story is along the same line.

Does this help?

 

Very good questions!! I think others should answer these questions also (not pointing fingers) but others that that are having a hard time grasping what has been said. :mellow:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Feb 15 2007, 10:47 PM) [snapback]391258[/snapback]</div>

I hate to say it Loveit, but I think most on this thread are just playing games...
The quote below says it all..

We are not here to debate God... <_<

 

Notice they don't like playing defense... its not as fun is it?

Also it takes a little smarts to answer peoples questions....

any moron can complain and ask pointless questions over and over....


try answering a few for a change and show everyone your ignorace a little more clearly!

Better yet... share your most intimate secrets and have all of us negate them as being insane and foolish and see how that makes your feel!!!

Since we have all these bleeding hearts out here worrying about Gods creation......
maybe they should care half as much for Gods creation called "man" as they do for little flowers and pink clovers!
I wonder how heartless, inconsiderate, and unthankful we can be for sharing your special times and things that make life worth living?

Try telling me something I really need and that will save my life and lets see how good I can discount it and make fun of it?....

commone... share you life with us!!!


It won't take long you will feel your casting your pearls before filthy unthankful swine....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 14 2007, 08:19 PM) [snapback]390675[/snapback]</div>

This forum is a debate forum, and typically in America today, debate devolves into personal attack and invective. When that happens, the ideas take a back seat to the snappy answer, and the most aggressive (but not necessarily the most knowledgeable) person "wins". Even well intentioned people have trouble being able to communicate in this environment, but many people like debate served this way.

As to your Bishop's homily, I like it! It is real and authentic, and makes you think. The debate environment has made it hard to hear those messages, as Christians have bought into the polarized political atmosphere, and minor issues such as evolution have become wedge issues.

Protestant Christians claim to believe in "sola scriptura", that the Bible has all the ingredients necessary for us to mix up a fresh batch of salvation and roll it out to rise and form our theology. To carry on that "bread recipe" analogy, many Christians take shortcuts after doing the work, and just want to serve the finished loaf of bread to others. But our loaf may look different than another Christian's loaf, so arguments start: how can that be "bread" when it doesn't have poppy seeds on it? Why is the other loaf brown, and yours white? Which is the authentic loaf?

All of the recipes include a few basic ingredients ... flour, water, and yeast ... and then all the extras. We include a lot of scripture in those extras, but to be honest, we include a lot of ourselves as well, drawing on our own reason and understanding of God. We argue about the extras among ourselves, and forget that its in making the bread that we discovered our faith, and we all started with the basics ... flour, water and yeast.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 14 2007, 08:19 PM) [snapback]390675[/snapback]</div>

Jesus asked his followers to think of how an earthly father would react to a son; if the son asked for bread, would his father give him a rock? Jesus asked his followers to think of God like a father, who would surely give his son some bread. The greater message is that we have to think of who God is, what his attributes are, what is in tune with his nature. If you were a father, would you blame your son if he thought he was an orphan? Your answer is the beginning of your theology.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Feb 15 2007, 09:54 PM) [snapback]391236[/snapback]</div>

You're a lot smarter than the guy who wrote the bible:


LEV 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
LEV 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
LEV 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you

 

I can't count how many times a Christian has befriended me only for the sake of conversion. I have absolutely no intention of such.

http://tinyurl.com/36rja7

Still avoiding all the contradictions I had pointed out (and I found a lot more too!)

Hey dude, I'm trying to help you out - take a closer at what you're saying, ahem.

I bow to no god.

Will do - it's only fair!

Depends... if you're wrong and the right religion is Islam....... well guess I'll be meeting you down there in person! If I'm wrong? Depends...... let's assume for the sake of arguments there are actually spirits... instead of heaven I may float around outer space... or any other infinite number of possibilities. Why narrow it to this concept of heaven/hell?

There's no objective purpose to life... it's all subjective. If I devote my life to feeding the poor and I accomplish that - then that's exactly what I gained. If I live my entire life as a hedonist enjoying every moment - chances are that I would've made the wrong choices health-wise and end up hating the last 15 years of my dying life... hence I won't be choosing such a life.

Astronomical chances are - that no matter how much you dream of heaven, it won't change anything once your body has transitioned into more basic organic components.

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

-Carl Sagan

I go where the evidence is... but no matter what anyone believes, reality is completely disconnected.

It's been a wonderful day! Not sure who has hurt me? Only thing is - I hate how religion affects politics.

It's the most likely scenario. Order is relative - right now we're all slinging at some 600,000 miles a second (I forget the exact figure).

You can't even begin to assume what or how the universe was 'created' - assuming it was ever created to begin with. Let's assume for the sake of argument that there was one creator. Then... who created the creator? What if the creator is really a multidude of forces that don't fall into this preconceived notion of a "God" or "creator?"

If you even took a look at the contradictions I posted - you'd see not even your god is giving you the "Truth."

It's called the scientific method.

With all due respect:

that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Feb 15 2007, 04:32 PM) [snapback]391198[/snapback]</div>

You know I'm not in the inerrancy camp, as has been expressed here, right? I just want to make that point, because I believe the 66 or so books in the Bible were indeed written by men, with different viewpoints and concepts of who God is ... but I still hold the Bible as holy Scripture, which means "inspired" or "God breathed", but not necessarily "inerrant" in the current understanding of the word. (Before the middle ages, books weren't read like they are now, and weren't intended to be history texts, science texts or taken with a wooden literalism that is so prevalent today).

That being said, your question is answered in basic theology with the doctrines of the Trinity, the incarnation and deity of Christ, and the lesser doctrines held by some Christians of positional relationships of the Trinity during different times. The doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is three persons, and God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal (there are some variations on this, but nearly all Christian denominations have this as a doctrine.)

When God the Son came to earth to be born of a woman and live among us, he gave up certain attributes and became Jesus. Jesus worked only with the same kind of faith we can have; he wasn't omniscient in his human form, and he wasn't omnipresent in his human form, yet he did not give up his position as God the Son. So indeed, from Jesus' perspective in his human form, he was limited in ways God the Father was not.

In Christianity, the books of the Hebrew Scriptures were accepted as scripture because the Jews had established them as such. The books of the New Testament were canonized because of all the writings present and in use by the churches in the 4th century, they were the ones quoted by the great church fathers as being "scripture", or were validated (according to their research) to have been written by eyewitnesses to the events. Many books were excluded on the basis that some things in the text of that book itself were inconsistent, but no attempt was made to enforce any kind of harmony between the view of Matthew, Luke or John about Christ; they are all valid views of the eyewitnesses of the events. Likewise, the epistles were accepted as separate writings on their own merits, even if there was contradictory material between them (as there is).

Because Jesus did not write anything down, and the religion grew "organically" without the trappings of religion in the beginning, Christianity is closer to Judiasm than it is to the other great monotheistic faith, Islam. It is clear what is meant in the Koran, because it has a single source (Mohammad, who their tradition says was given the words by the arch-angel Michael, I believe). The Jews had to take their books and figure out what it all meant, and consider that one author said one thing, and another said something else, and make a theology out of it. In Christianity, the same process had to be done, and some sociologists point to that as the great strength of the west, that the predominant religion had to use reason and debate to form their beliefs.

 

Good night! Sleep tight! don't let the bedbugs bite!
-_-

 

How come one person sees "truth" as loving his wife and family and working hard to see that their needs are supplied, while another thinks its ok to sit at home and drink all day long and let his wife support the family while he watches porn all day and doesn't pay his child support to the last wife he burned?

Can you tell me what makes the difference in these men?

They both percieve "truth" in a different manner?... what is the key ingredient that makes them different?


Now, you go do your homework and when you come back, we will let you stand in front of the class and read us your findings...

Thanks for your attention in this matter....class is in recess.....

 

I hope you realize that you're projecting... look that one up too, Sylus (sp?).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Feb 15 2007, 07:01 PM) [snapback]391157[/snapback]</div>

FAITH is a belief not based on proof. You have faith that what you believe is right. That's OK. But- you shouldn't expect others to convert to your beliefs based on your FAITH. So- you tell us it's right, so we should believe it. Very dangerous. You say it's absolute truth because the Bible says it is. For those who do not share your FAITH, the Bible is not absolute truth.

The whole "we're right; you're wrong, unless of course you believe what we do" is dangerous and ugly.
Christians should lead by example. My experience has been that they are some of the most judgemental, self righteous, inconsistent, and in many cases mean, immoral and ignorant among us. I have also known Christians who are the most selfless, kind, loving, generous and truly honest and giving people I have known. Believing in God is not so hard to do. Believing in Christians is not so easy. Oh, and by the way- the argumentative approach chases more people away than it brings into the fold.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Feb 16 2007, 08:14 AM) [snapback]391364[/snapback]</div>

[/b]

Nicely put, Windstrings!

I for one don't expect YOU to convert to any religion, But the words out there for you if you should decide too. best of luck in your life Dude, is :huh: this feather stroking???

withersea: The whole "we're right; you're wrong, unless of course you believe what we do" is dangerous and ugly. Christians should lead by example. My experience has been that they are some of the most judgemental, self righteous, inconsistent, and in many cases mean, immoral and ignorant among us. I have also known Christians who are the most selfless, kind, loving, generous and truly honest and giving people I have known. Believing in God is not so hard to do. Believing in Christians is not so easy. Oh, and by the way- the argumentative approach chases more people away than it brings into the fold.

The argumentative approach, chases more people away than it brings into the fold. :lol: You should know!