Down to the Rapture

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 1 2007, 02:21 PM) [snapback]398722[/snapback]</div>

First of all, yes, of course I love and am loved, by family and friends. I care very deeply about those closest to me, and care somewhat less deeply but nonetheless significantly for people in general.

But the thrust of your question is borne by two assumptions, both of which I think flawed.

The first is that love and caring are by nature irrational, inexplicable by logic. There are many scientific studies that thoroughly refute that assumption, and very clearly spell out the evolutionary underpinnings of love, altruism, social cooperation, empathy and all the wide range of "romantic" emotions and behaviors we experience. For some, such knowledge kills the "romance", so to speak, and they'd rather it be all a mystery, but wishful thinking aside, there are strong and detailed scientific explanations for what love is, and the human species is not the only species that practices these socializing behaviors. For me, knowing how they work doesn't diminsh their power, and in several respects knowing how they work even deepens and enriches the experience.

The second is that love and caring are impossible without "god". This is, excuse my bluntness, a flat lie. I have thoroughly eradicated "god" from my life and have found deeper love than any I experienced "with god". For starters, such love is not conditioned on believing in the same things, which I would find intolerably stifling in any relationship, loving or friendship. Perhaps you yourself feel that you would not be capable of deep love without "god", but do not make the mistake that your feelings are necessarily the same for everyone else.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 1 2007, 08:58 PM) [snapback]398840[/snapback]</div>

Wow!.. I appreciate you being so honest!

I too would be totally peeved and upset if a similiar occurence happned to me.. too many churches are social clubs and shun those that don't fit in... all in the name of God.

Many church goers don't realize that the "undesirables" are the ones that need to be there the most?

They look at thier clothes, their mannerisms as they don't know how to act in church and thier funky harcuts and foul mouth and can't see through all the flesh to see the hungry soul.

Good grief, if we can't go to church... where can we go?

I"m really sorry you experienced that and were exposed to those who didn't flow in the love of Christ.

It gets much worse...... we call our preist "Fathers".. what does that mean... they are a father?

What happened to that?....

They can't marry a woman? but its ok to have sex with a man?... or a little boy? And still maintain a pulpit?
Are they only afraid of a "lawsuit" from man, but not afraid of Gods lawsuit?

I totally agree it is 'very" confusing when looking around at what most of todays churches offer.

They promise liberty and freedom and when you walk in to get it, most are caught up in themselves so much they don't even notice your entrance.. and if they do, they give you some fake handshake with no intentions of "ever" wanting to get into your life and really mentor or be a "brother" to you as the term is so commonly used.
(2 Pet 2:18 NKJV) For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
(2 Pet 2:19 NKJV) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
(2 Pet 2:20 NKJV) For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
(2 Pet 2:21 NKJV) For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
(2 Pet 2:22 NKJV) But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."


Enough church bashing.. I"m just trying to tell you.. I know and see where your coming from now that you have shared a tiny piece of your real life.

The church is alive and well and very powerful.. its just allot churches who "profess" God are powerless whimps who are afraid of the devils every move and are corrupt from within thus killing thier faith and power to walk in the power the bible promises.

God is real and he is really alive and his church is strong.... but just as not every person who professes to know Christ really does.. even so many churches are driven by money, social strengths and have very little of the presence of God controlling thier services, events, messages, songs and monies.
They are in control of "man" instead.
There has always been politics and corruption in the church.. just not the real church.

See the "church of God" is a body of people saved, sanctified and commited to Christ.. not a set of buildings ran by boards who only have business sense and no ear for Gods voice unless its in agreement with their own understanding and agenda.

You see why God can't use someone that only trust in "their" understanding?.... He is the Boss and knows best as he can see more and has the game plan and the power to fullfill it.

Don't give up on God just because some immature selfish souls burn't you.

God has people out there that hears his voice and will be a strength to you.

But don't depend on man and put your faith in them.. they will always show vulnerability and weakness and falter... only Jesus will never let you down.

I too (as you should be able to tell by now) tend to be very analytical.

God can use that for his glory if its disciplined under his authority and it can cause a mess just as fast if its not!

I say what I say about not "trusting" in your understanding.. not only because its scripture, but because I have learned it usually throws me off track and I can't trust in it and I can't see and understand what God Can.
(Isa 55:6 NKJV) Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
(Isa 55:7 NKJV) Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
(Isa 55:8 NKJV) "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
(Isa 55:9 NKJV) "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

My intelligence "or trust in it" was a major deterant to learning to follow God and hear and obey his voice.

Your intelligence is given you of God and its a good thing, as long as its under submission and you don't trust in it when dealing directly with God.
In time, he will teach you how to use it "his" way.

It will help you negotiate life and deal with those around you and expound on thoughts of scripture and life to those that only relate on that plane.

We "devise" our way alright, but then the Lord directs our steps.. we have to able to trust that his "directing" will pay off and to allow him to "deviate" us from our original devised plan.

Nothing wrong in "devising" and way... God has a hard time directing a ship that sits in port and won't move... if your moving, He can at least direct the rutter for you if you will allow him.

(Prov 16:9 NKJV) A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

God loves you and he loves the intelligence he Gave you, but it all has to trust in God and let him be God or "Lord".

Thanks for spending a few moments of "being real".

It was nice to talk to the real you..... your a much more pleasant guy that the other one.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 1 2007, 09:38 PM) [snapback]398859[/snapback]</div>

Mark..I understand your point "I think" but even bugs have a romance ceremony as well as all the animals.
The motherly and fatherly instinct to protect, nurture, etc is all hormone driven and a free gift of God given to all his creation and is considered "natural".
Funny how that "cermony" looses its punch one you catch your mate!

However Godly love superceeds all of that by far... its not something you even 'possess".. its something that flows through you as your a channel it passes through. Or your a vessel that can hold it.. but believe me.. we leak faith, love, patience.. all the virtues of God quickly bleed away if we are not tapped in all the time as a branch is to a vine... He is the vine.. if you pull off a branch, it can still look green for a short while, but it quickly fades without the vine to support it and give it life.
We have a very small reservoir to get by without God without reverting back to our nasty fleshly selves.

The manna that came from heaven was only good for "one" day.. if you tried to store it.. it rotted.. they had to get the supernatural feeding from heaven "every day" to get by..... that was a type and shadow of our life with God now.

True.. barring death, sickness or a catastrophe, you can get by without God.. but your dead to all that you were made to walk in and know. You are little more than an animal.

To live "supernaturally" above sin.. you have to stay graffed in the vine "Jesus".

Even Jesus "while in the flesh" had to pray as well as all the apostles etc... He is our source to live above sin and its influences.... without him is no life.

The Holy Spirit is the "continual comforting" of Gods presence... even in times when you can't feel him, you somehow know he is there and he manifest himselves in other ways.

Sometimes you feel him so strong, you can't believe you ever doubted him, then other times, its like hes on the darkside of the moon and your faith carrys you.

But one thing for sure.. when you walk with God.. every day is an adventure.. the fear of death no longer torments you and you have joy unspeakable full of glory.

(Luke 24:45 KJV) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 1 2007, 06:30 PM) [snapback]398708[/snapback]</div>

Well, speaking as one who got molested by a priest a lot, and having survived, I can say that I forgave him, and when I saw him, on his deathbed, me the pastor, not a priest in the Catholic religion, he heard me forgive him, then he told me I was going to hell because I left the Catholic faith...which brings me to this:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 1 2007, 11:58 PM) [snapback]398840[/snapback]</div>

Once, about ten years ago, I too, was asked to leave a church. They turned their back on me, literally. It was a Assembly of God church. There, I had amassed a lot of friends, but because I was questioning leadership, it was as if I had committed heresy. Which I suppose, in their eyes, I had. FRIENDS that considered me FAMILY, turned away.

I found solstice in a New Life Church (a member of Willow Creek), and turned my life around. As in, turned it towards the peace I have now.

It always bothered me to just blindly accept God, because a book, or others, said to. I believe that God has wired us all, non believers and believers, to question, to poke, to even come to the conclusion that He is not God. I think God accepts that, as He accepts us all.

It says right in the Bible, Genesis 1:26 (TMSG) God spoke: “Let us make human beings in our image, make them reflecting our nature .”


OUR nature. Which to me, is to be CURIOUS. To wonder out loud, 'Is there God? And if so, does God wear pants?'

Or whatever.


Mark, I enjoy reading your responses. I wish you peace in your journey.



(on a side note, and worth noting...)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Mar 1 2007, 08:24 PM) [snapback]398746[/snapback]</div>

Funny. How he can call you by your first name, but we don't know his...or any of the True Believers. Weird.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Mar 1 2007, 08:24 PM) [snapback]398746[/snapback]</div>

I am a better human then you. There. I said it. Oh, and BTW, I am only better because you defied me to say it. A reall nice human, would not defy anyone to say anything...

So, QED. I am therefore a better human.

:lol:

However, and if I can be sort of serious, if you want to have your works demonstrate your faith, then how does the person who is handicap demonstrate their works? Who is to judge that a person who becomes a Christian, then gets hit by the bus, and therefore, had no time to demonstrate anything other then a brief moment of accepting God, did not demonstrate faith? Who is to say, that perhaps when you question your faith, you are not indeed, demonstrating it? For God said, 'Test me'.

It's tricky. I for one, am glad I am not God; the task He has...monumental.

 

AirportKid, I am very sorry that you were asked to leave the church. But I was listening to a minister just last night on tv, (I never saw the guy or heard him before in all my life, but he was from Tennessee.), he said something very thought provoking and I did think about it.

No man on the face of the earth has the right to tell another man/person that he cannot go to the Heavenly Father; or that he is "ex-communicated". But being ex-communicated is saying that a person cannot talk to the Heavenly Father which is not true.

Sure there are instances in the bible where it says that sometimes we need to separate ourselves from others if they are knowingly walking in sin, but not because simply because they are asking questions.

I know that some things can be really sticky when a priest/pastor decides to confront a person about their sin.

I definitely believe that if a person is trying to be obedient to the Father's Word, and he/she is having struggles with a particular area of their life, then it is important to receive support, and prayer.

It is the sick people that need a doctor. Likewise, people need the Heavenly Father the most especially when they are struggling with their sin. He promises to help us in when we are weak.

That's why the Father gave us the Holy Spirit. He is our Comforter, He is our Teacher because He brings to remembrance all the things which Christ taught, and He has the power to Help us in time of need.

Sometimes there is a complete deliverance from that which a person cannot overcome. There are other times in which a person needs to do their part, and God will do the rest. But for each person their walk with the Lord will be unique. Why? Because each person, though they are made in God's image, are unique too. That's what makes them very special in the eyes of God.

But I know that if a person is trying with all his heart to do what the Heavenly Father asks of Him, to live by His Word, that the Father sees that person's heart.

In the book of Samuel, there is a scripture where it says: "A man may look at the outward appearance of another man/person, but God sees the heart."

Only God can see another person's motive.

I have a hearing problem. I don't always hear everything and that's okay with me, I have learned how to live with it. But there have been so many times when people have misjudged me because if I didn't hear them, and didn't answer them, then they thought I was a snob or whatever.

And so I really had to learn how to forgive those people and trust the Lord for the outcome. It took awhile, but you know, the Father has given me such freedom, that I don't worry about it anymore; and I am not bitter about those people.

I remember going to my pastor greatly upset about some people and the way I was being treated, and I remember the Lord's words: "don't let a root of bitterness spring up within you for it will defile many," not to mention myself. I didn't want to become bitter, and so he prayed with me.

It didn't happen overnight, but I worked on it; and I prayed for those that hurt me. I didn't go back and try to patch things up because these people didn't go to church and they wouldn't understand. The thing that they would understand would be my behavior and how I reacted to them. Actions do speak louder than words.

I also prayed that they Lord would give me the opportunity to "redeem" the situation so that I could work with that person/people. The Lord was gracious to me because that's exactly what happened. I can't say that the relationship is close but I no longer "feel" uncomfortable.

Like Windstrings says, we cannot judge another person's heart. But the Lord does ask His body to hold each other accountable for their behavior and actions, especially those that do not line up with His word.

And even then, we are to love that person but hate the sin.

Man will not always have an answer for everything pertaining to God, even pastors and priests will not have all the answers.

It is up to Him to reveal Himself to each person, just as you would to your family and close friends. (Even then we don't even always do that.)

But like Windstrings says, the Lord would have us cry out to Him in all of our frustrations, anger, and hurt.

The bible says that King David, who sinned with Bathsheba, had a heart that God loved. How? Well, when God confronted David through Nathan the prophet about his sin, David repented, (meaning he agreed with God that he had sinned), and although David suffered the consequences of his sin, God forgave. That's why it is often said that David was a man after God's own heart.

The bible also says, "that a broken and contrite spirit the Lord will not despise," and "a bruised reed He will not break."

He will hear your cry and answer you, He will not turn away from you.

I know that some churches are "religious" in a sense that they put "a millstone" around a baby/or young Christian's neck.

God never, ever expected for anyone to carry that type of burden.

I would encourage you to try a church where you feel comfortable, where you can go to study more of God's word and learn.

They might not have all the answers to the questions that you may have, but that's okay.

It's hard to go back when you have been burnt really bad. But not all churches are like that.

I have been in church all of my life, and I still go, and that's been quite a few years.

When Christ died on the cross, He said, "It is finished." That means all sin(s) have been paid for in full. Past, present, and future.

Airport Kid, I am going to pray for you right now.

Father, I come to you and ask Lord to please help Airport Kid.

Lord, I thank you for your love for me and for AirportKid, Father. I praise you for your everlasting love, mercy, and kindness. Your mercies are new every morning Lord, and great is your faithfulness for your love is never failiing.

Father, we worship you for who you are. You are the Almighty God, the All Powerful God. You are worthy to be praised from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same. May your name be praised forever!

Glory to your name of Lord! Praise to your name Father! Blessed be your name O Lord!

We invite you this day Father to be a part of our lives Lord. Show yourself real to us Lord in our time of need Father.

Lord thank you that we are able to come boldly before your throne with full assurance and confidence that you not only hear our prayer but that you will answer our prayer. Thank you Father for such a privilege that we have in you.

Father, I know that according to AirportKid he's been hurt deeply. I pray Lord, that you would give him the courage and strength to seek you out. Draw close to Him Father and reveal yourself to him as he has never known you before Lord.

Father, apply your love over the deepest parts of those hurts, and may the Holy Spirit Comfort him and lead him and teach him all the things that you want AirportKid to know.

Father, give him the peace that surpasses all understanding.

Lord, I know that you will direct his steps. "Though a godly man fall down seven times, you will pick him up and set him upon his feet, and will put him upon the Rock."

Lord, help him to understand, "though AirportKid may make his plans, it is You who directs his steps."

Father, I know that my life is in your hands, and that nothing that happens to me goes un-noticed by you. I pray O Lord, that AirportKid would know too, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that his life is in your hands also, and that nothing which happens in his life goes un-noticed by you.

Father, bless AirportKid with all heavenly blessings show him the church he needs to be in Lord. One of your own choosing Father. One where the truth will be taught without compromise but with with Your love, mercy, and grace ever extended to those in need.

Bless Him Father, and all those that are nearest and dearest to him Lord.
Father, thank you for the priviledge of "knowing" AirportKid.

In Jesus' Name, Amen.

God Bless YOU, Airport Kid! And have a great day!

 

Far out.

Just...far out. Mark is his name. 'Airport Kid' is his screen name. You prayed for his screen name, when you know his name is Mark!

Far out.

Wow.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 2 2007, 12:35 AM) [snapback]398923[/snapback]</div>

Wow.. that really stinks!.....

I know you had a bond with him and his words had power to cut towards you.. but I hope you know that any priest that was that mixed up, also does not have any insight at all as to where you are going because you left the Catholic faith!...

I guess he figured, he has a license to sin and destroy others for his own lustfull pleasures because he "was" of the catholic faith?

What gives?

Anyway... thats another thing thats happening in the last days..... a separation of the false from the true... wheat from the tares.

God can heal to where the sting is gone as if it never happened... hard to believe, but true.

True deliverance from the past takes away its torment too.. otherwise it would not be deliverance.



For What its worth TJ... my name is Alan

 

Yes, I know his name is Mark, but I like his screen name because that is the essence of who he is, otherwise he would have not chosen it.

AirportKid, let me know if you prefer to be called Mark. If so, I will do that!

Have a great day folks!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 1 2007, 11:58 PM) [snapback]398840[/snapback]</div>

I don't know the reasons for you being asked to leave..only you do. However, even the Apostle Paul writes that a church should expel a member if that member will not repent and is influencing other members to not believe or to backslide. For cryin' out loud...I suspect you were being a pompass a** and hardening your heart. There is no rule or commandment or moral imperative to allow a wolf to wander among your flock. So I take umbrage at you "no good reason" quote when, by saying they cannot tolerate apostasy, you admit to being that way. Mark, we cannot agree on this basic premise....no one understands God until they believe....so you and I are speaking in different languages. Until one of us moves...and I'm not gonna....then you will not "hear" anything I say. I might as well be speaking in Arameic (sp?)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 2 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]398861[/snapback]</div>

Wind, you assumed it was because he dressed different or acted different. I read that he was an unbeliver, put stumbling blocks in front of others in the church, did not support the others beliefs and was generally a "wolf" in the congregation. That kind of person, like a cancer, must be cut out. I believe Paul speaks of that in 1 Cor.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 2 2007, 03:35 AM) [snapback]398923[/snapback]</div>

1) God and Jesus did not reject you, 2 LOL on the better person thing, and 3 I am sure you realized my point was, before God, no one has the right to say they are a "better" person and, even so, it would depend on your definition of "better". I guess, since some my have misunderstood and thought I was "puffing" myself up... was not. I no longer think in terms of me being "better" than anyone..yes ANYONE else. Basically, I am a "there but for the grace of God go I" kind of person.. I do not worry about God having difficulty with such issues...I have faith he is up to the task.

On a non-doctrinal scale...so I feel comfortable in these doubts...I don't like how my church has prayer meetings and asks for requests, and people ask for money to repair thier car, for a job, for a change in working hours, or even that a brother or sister be healed from a major or minor ailment. I think we should pray for God to lead us to the correct job, that he should lead us to understanding as to why we are struggling, that he should comfort those who are ill. But......I say nothing because I don't know if that way is better or not...AND....it doesn't really change the basic issues of my Faith. From a lot of these posts, that seems to be a sticking point for a lot of people. There are DOCTRINAL issues (salvation, faith, baptism) and there are church rules and traditions (no jeans, communion every sunday, no singing, etc. etc)

If you don't like a Church's rules and traditions, go find another church. If you cannot accept rules and traditions, they can tell you to find a church that would better suit you...BUT, if the church does not follow the doctrinal beliefs you have....RUN AWAY and thank the Holy Spirit you were not corrupted.

Example, some of my family and some friends are not so surprised at my salvation as they are that I joined a fundemental BAPTIST church. It is very hellfire and brimstone (no one is surprised...right?) It fits my personality. It has the DOCTRINE I believe in, as many churches do, but it also has rules and traditions I like...so I fit in....so I enjoy the others who are LIKE-MINDED.

Look around at who you pick as CLOSE friends...I suspect the long lasting and frequently visited ones are like minded as well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 2 2007, 04:44 AM) [snapback]398955[/snapback]</div>

WOW, I can't believe after that wonderful prayer, you thought this was an issue.

Wow!

Far in!

Lovit (or anyone) If you pray for me, you can call me by any name you want...so ong as, in your heart, you know who it is for, because I guarantee God knows.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 1 2007, 08:16 PM) [snapback]398764[/snapback]</div>

Pot, meet Kettle....

I meant sentient, just like I said. A sentient being.

At least you're nice when you demean others belief systems/religions. Previously, your people would have slaughtered us..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 2 2007, 06:06 AM) [snapback]398988[/snapback]</div>

Alan Windstrings from Fargo North Dakota?

Class of 84?

Remember tha day in spring of '83 in gym class when the ball got stuck in the lights and that kid got electrocuted... anyhow, Wow, I had no idea it was you.

I am having to stick with being anonymous, the net can be a weird place. I admire the courage of everyone who has come out with their name on here though.

 

6yrs ago, I visited a local church in the area it was a big church..!

I was invited to a singles night event, I was amazed the women acted like it was a meat market for men.. It seemed like it was a race to see who could land the new guy... :huh: :mellow:


I visited a Jehovas witness church, once they found out I had been baptized in a christian church I was shunned......

I visited a Catholic church, they where nice, but I didnt really feel welcome. I was just another body.

I visited Benny Henns church, I was turned off by his fake healing powers.

I visited a morman church, the preacher told the congergation that the southern baptists play bangos in thier services (everyone laughed) I left I came from a Southern baptist church and knew he was making a joke but I didnt think it was funny as some of his congergation thought he was serious, and acually where commenting on it after the service...

I found a nice small non-denominational church to attend and have been happy ever since.

I liked Joel Osteens church, I visited it when I went to texas..

I thought it was strange as a boy the churches had an organ & a piano.

Now most have a full band, I guessed tthey do that to be more upbeat and attract wider range of people.

Kinda like the churches that have openly gay ministers or women pastors as they will attract more followers and add more money to the offering plate.

The church I attend now doesnt take up an offering they have a box at each exit if you felt like droping some thing in thats fine, if not thats fine too.....

 

Schmika, I know that there are a lot of churches that do not know how to treat someone whose mannerisms, clothes, and lifestyle is different; but the Lord would always reach out to that person in love.

I know that many people have been hurt by those in who have authority in the church buildings, but the Body of Christ is under His authority.

I know that my pastor, if he knew/heard of/about a person, and what he found out was disturbing, you can bet your bottom dollar that my pastor would go to him directly and inquire about it, and find out for himself, and not just take anyone's word for it.

Sure, people are misguided, and mean well, but just because they don't fully understand the way a church functions or operates doesn't mean that person is doomed to hell.

Quite the contrary. If the head of the church building has any God-given sense, and the Holy Spirit living inside of him, then he would be able to discern whether or not where that particular person is coming from.

And even then, mercy is always extended so that the person will have the opportunity to learn and grow from his mistakes.

The other thing, those that are the "shepherds" of the church will be held accountable to the Lord for their actions, and not to anyone else.

Likewise, I would be very careful about pointing fingers.

I attended a church many years ago. An independent one at that. The pastor had recently died, and the SELF-ORDAINED elders hired another pastor who was from a mainline protestant church.

After a few months later after hiring the new pastor, one of the elders approached me and said, "We want to get rid of the pastor, he's not whatever......"

Mind you, I had no authority, and no position within this small church; and I had come out of the Baptist church recently because I was born again and filled with the Holy Spirit.

So I said to him, "Well, why don't you just fire the guy? That's what they do in the Baptist churches."

And he said, "No can do."

I said, "Why not?"

He says, "Well, the last church that we had, when they wanted to get rid of the pastor, one elder died in a firery car crash, another commited suicide, another died from cancer, ect., ect."

So I say, "DUH!!!!! What does that tell you?"

Some things are none of our business and so those things should be left up to God, especially those in authority in the church buildings.

Likewise, we don't even have a clue to what a person has been through, and many won't even share because they have already been "condemned," not by God, but by man.

The Lord is patience, long-suffering, and not willing that any man should perish, but that through Him, all men might have eternal life.

 

A couple of months ago, I remember when there was a hypermiler article featuring Wayne Gerdes. Some members proceeded to rip him up without mercy. That prompted a number of people (including myself) to mention they have met Wayne, he's quite alright and not the threat to public safety some were potraying him to be. A couple of days ago, I saw the same thing being done to Windstrings. Several months ago, we met for a couple of hours and rode each others' hybrids. That meeting was far more positive than the recent depictions of him on this thread.

At an old job, I had many pleasant lunches with a co-worker. He identified himself as agnostic/athiest - I'm Christian and believe in Rapture in my lifetime or beyond. Our conversations were far more civil than the ones I've seen more than occasionally at FHOP on this topic with members calling others intolerant, lunatics, posting belly-laughing emoticons at other's beliefs, etc... I see a lot of anger in many of the religious posts, particluar from the secular viewpoint. For instance, I'm not a Muslim, but I'll use upper case when refering to Muhammad or Allah out of civility, so why can't some of the members of a secular viewpoint use uppercase on the mention of God? I've addressed people "Sir" at times when I have not particulaly felt like doing it.

I'm active at PC inspite of a number of threads containing an enormous amount of vitrol at Christians. Seen more than occasional posts that tend to lump all Christians as being like Jimmy Swaggart or some other bad poster boy, they sign off on everything GWB does, or automatically Global Warming skeptics. There must be a polar opposite of "The Church Lady" and she resides at FHOP.

I've spoken my mind, but suspect there are others that silently have similar feelings.

 

Mohammad was a murdering, raping, pedophile.. that's why.

The only reason I capitalized his name was because it was the beginning of a sentence.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Mar 2 2007, 10:44 AM) [snapback]399160[/snapback]</div>

The difference I see, Delta, is that the PERSON should always be respected: you, Dr. Berman, Priusguy, fshagan, windstrings, Loveit, Daniel, Schmika, etc. should always be addressed respectfully, not called names, not personally insulted, no matter how violently one disagrees with an idea, belief or opinion. I can be extremely cutting and combative in my posts, but I try very hard to avoid insult to the person.

Ideas, beliefs and opions, on the other hand, are NOT people, they are abstractions, and the very heart of argument is dissection of them. They are not intrinsically deserving of respect, indeed, to express respect for a thoroughly bad idea is an implicit condonement of it. When I spell "god" in lowercase, it is very deliberate: it makes it clear that I have no respect for the idea, or the belief of a "god" - and I will not give my endorsement to what I regard as a bad idea by giving it someone else's patina of authenticity (the uppercase "G").

Scorn, sarcasm, biting wit are what give argument its zest, make it more than a cold, calculated exchange of logic. And they are excellent rhetorical tools for making a strong point succinctly.

The problem, of course, is that "dissing" an idea often gets interpreted as "dissing" the person, or worse, as many people do here on the chatboard, they think "dissing" the person is effective argument against an idea.

I'll roundly stomp on what I think is a bad idea and the person who expressed the idea might think I'm insulting them as a person. I'm not - but I have to accept that possibility as one of the natural risks of debate. I'm not willing to sugarcoat my criticisms of what I consider stupid ideas - doing so, as I said earlier, is implicit condonement, and it blunts the force of good argument.

But however viciously I try to dismember what I regard as bad opinion, I try always to maintain respect for the person. I'll never capitalize "god", but I won't call windstrings or Loveit or Schmika themselves stupid, or blind, or a moron - even if they slip up from time to time in the heat of debate and cast an insult at me.

The person always deserves respect: but ideas, beliefs and opinions, being abstractions, are fair game for whatever you can hurl at the bad ones.

That's my opinion - and it's out there for the trashing and thrashing some of you might feel it richly deserves, and have at it! Just don't call ME names while you club it.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

Mark, I won't call you names. You are entitled to your opinion and respect.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Mar 2 2007, 10:51 AM) [snapback]399112[/snapback]</div>

LOL!.. unfortunatly.. I"m older than that!



I never mind being personable if it helps know each other a little bit, but not vulnerable....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 2 2007, 04:32 PM) [snapback]399289[/snapback]</div>

I totally agree "if" the person is being honest... heated discussions and total frustration is ok with me and ok with God if its sincere.

What I don't respect is hecklers who are just trying to cause trouble and make fun at persecuting those who are trying to be real.

Sorry if I miss interpreted your actions earlier.



I appreciate anyone who disagrees with me if they are trying to express thier true thoughts and feelings.... I just don't give much grace when they talk totally recklessly without intent to comunicate, but only to incite anger and rage and see if they can get thier opponent off guard so they can find fault with them.



I've never liked "head games"... still don't... but if someone persist in playing, I can give them a run for thier money.. but I will never instigate it...and I would rather not even talk to them if they are just slandering everything I say.



Respect is a critical part of good communication.. but it has to be earned by both parties.