Down to the Rapture

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 22 2007, 01:04 AM) [snapback]409951[/snapback]</div>

ALAN, I have yet to tear one page out of the Bible. What I have done, after many many many years of study, is just begin to scratch the surface of what is real and what is 'MAN MADE' in the Bible. Your problem, as far as I can see it, is you don't like the idea that your very foundation, the Bible, may be anything less then perfect. Your whole existence hinges on that one book being correct; 100% correct. You could not live with it being anything less then perfect, since your faith in God hinges on it. You have made it perfectly clear, that in your limited view (limited by your own opinion), that anything less then a perfect Bible is impossible.

Even when faced with facts about the dubious origin of many of the books in The Bible, of the fact that even in published study Bibles, by respected Bible publishers, there rises the occasional question as to the origins of text, even when faced with those facts, you turn away, refusing to open your mind, for fear that an open mind will lead to hell and damnation. You are not strong enough, in my opinion, in your faith that you are saved, and will go to heaven, despite your mistakes made in the past and the future. You are afraid to question that which you think saved you. You are afraid, ALAN, which is why you hold onto the Bible for your very life. Instead of having the peace I have in knowing what I know what I know is the Truth, (at least for me), and that I am going to heaven, and that God not only encourages my faith, He allows me to question the very book that so many hold dear.

He allows me to have Freedom to Think. Freedom to Question. In My View, God is like me: Curious. Questioning. Wanting to Verify Facts. Not just accepting something, because that something says to.

Like a book. In this case, The Bible. How utterly absurd, to take a PRINTED BOOK on it's 'WORD'. God inspired the Bible. INSPIRED, I can see. I mean, it's all about Him, isn't it? So naturally, it's INSPIRED by Him. But just like when the screenplay credit says, 'Inspired by real events', it does not mean that every event in that movie actually happened.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 22 2007, 01:04 AM) [snapback]409951[/snapback]</div>

Matthew 5:22
I’m telling you that anyone who is so much as angry with a brother or sister is guilty of murder. Carelessly call a brother ‘idiot!’ and you just might find yourself hauled into court. Thoughtlessly yell ‘stupid!’ at a sister and you are on the brink of hellfire. The simple moral fact is that words kill.

Words kill. Wonderfully stated. You have often 'killed' when you offer words of condemnation towards those who don't agree with you. I offer you critiques; I am trying to get you and loveittoomuchheisblind to see how your narrow minded views often kill the bee before it has a chance to gather the pollen to make the honey.

I am strong in the Word, for The Word gives me the assurance I can test it. It says to. I have taken to heart the essential message: To love and to have peace with one another. I have 'torn out' as you put it, the parts that men with a separate agenda put in. Men who, in the early days of the church, were trying to establish a kingdom on earth, for their King to occupy when He returned. Men who, in their limited view, wrote in things that would allow them to set the rules, so they would be obeyed, and trusted to lead. What better way, then to say, that if you don't believe in the Bible, you would go to hell? What better way to inspire fear?

When nothing could be further from The Truth, and The Truth is God. God, God is Christ, and Christ promoted love. Not hate. Not fear.

Am I an 'expert' on the Bible? Hardly. I learn every day. I have said, I believe that 30-40% of the Bible as we have it today, is correct. When will you realize that is a huge amount of a book that is over 2000 years old? A book compiled, edited, and written by man, from hand me down copies of copies? So what if I don't buy Jonah and the whole being swallowed by a whale. So what if I question Noah. Or the whole seven days to create the earth. I think a lot of the Bible is written in allegory form, to make you think, to ponder.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 22 2007, 01:04 AM) [snapback]409951[/snapback]</div>

Nothing has changed. I am not trying to be 'nasty' towards you. I am, as I said earlier, (in a post that you and loveitoomuch ignored, BTW, even when I directed it towards you two specifically), I said this: "I may seem to come down on you two hard, because you two should know this about Christ: He did not confront to change one's mind. We may disagree about a lot of the Bible, but shirley we can agree that Christ was not pushy in that way."

You should at least know that. You should know that Christ would not try to cram His believes down the throats of those who did not believe in Him. We can, and will, ALAN, disagree on many things when it comes to Christ, but what I just don't get, is how you continue to belittle those who don't believe as you do, when it comes to Christ.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 22 2007, 01:04 AM) [snapback]409951[/snapback]</div>

You just don't get it, not one bit. God, you say, based on your view of the Bible, knows all. SOOOOO He would have no worry about ANYONE knowing anything about His plans, since, He knows He will win.

God is all powerful; can create universes, can travel back and forth in time, know every bit about you before you know it, and is somehow, afraid that if someone gets hold of His playbook, He will lose???

You really can't see how absurd that sounds? Really?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 22 2007, 01:04 AM) [snapback]409951[/snapback]</div>

(sigh) I am not angry with you, at all. Disappointed, maybe, but not angry. I have not missed any of the scriptures where Christ speaks on Truth.
Now, my turn to quote scripture at you. See if you get it, ALAN.

Matthew 5:38 –Matthew 5:48
Here’s another old saying that deserves a second look: ‘Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.’
Is that going to get us anywhere? Here’s what I propose: ‘Don’t hit back at all.’ If someone strikes you, stand there and take it.
If someone drags you into court and sues for the shirt off your back, gift-wrap your best coat and make a present of it.
And if someone takes unfair advantage of you, use the occasion to practice the servant life.
No more tit-for-tat stuff. Live generously.

You’re familiar with the old written law, ‘Love your friend,’ and its unwritten companion, ‘Hate your enemy.’

I’m challenging that. I’m telling you to love your enemies. Let them bring out the best in you, not the worst. When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer,
for then you are working out of your true selves, your God-created selves. This is what God does. He gives his best—the sun to warm and the rain to nourish—to everyone, regardless: the good and bad, the nice and nasty.
If all you do is love the lovable, do you expect a bonus? Anybody can do that.
If you simply say hello to those who greet you, do you expect a medal? Any run-of-the-mill sinner does that.

In a word, what I’m saying is, Grow up. You’re kingdom subjects. Now live like it. Live out your God-created identity. Live generously and graciously toward others, the way God lives toward you.

==========================

Peace out, for now.

 

Another quick post: This time aimed at the nice folks who would like to talk to me about things, and not always agree and all (you know who you are).

That is the way I see Christ when it comes to Him talking to Mohammad, or Buddha, or anyone, for that matter. He would just talk to them, and not condemn them.

Thanks for thinking you could talk to me in a friendly fashion; sometime, if I am traveling around where you all live, maybe we can hook up and talk over a beer or soda or a meal or whatever. I love to share views.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 22 2007, 04:18 AM) [snapback]410055[/snapback]</div>

TJ, If you ever find yourself at the Jersey Shore, you got yourself a deal!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 22 2007, 02:01 AM) [snapback]410049[/snapback]</div>

Why is it so hard to let your thoughts complete a full circle?

God does know what is going to happen based on keeping secrets from the enemy?

Maybe this is proof why we too should use our brains and God given sense to follow him and do whats right?, rather than take the attitude, "it really doesn't matter cause God knows the end"...
Thats what doesn't make sense?
thats the devils way of imparting a defeatist attitude to not do our role and our part and to be worthless cause God controls it all anyway?
God lets us have lots of control!... he gave us dominion over the whole planet!... if not for his intervention, we would have destroyed ourselves long ago.

In the same fashion that Jesus came to earth as a man and did not excercise if full glory and power as the son of God, but rather humbled himself under the punishment of sin, he too does not let his "foreknowledge get in the way".

By thinking the way you do, God would never forgive, knowing your gonna do it again anyway?
But everytime he forgives, the sins are thrown into the sea of forgetfulness never to be recalled again.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 22 2007, 02:18 AM) [snapback]410051[/snapback]</div>

I think your definition of perfect is wrong... the bible was written by men... but the message is right.
You are the one thats hung up and afraid... your so afraid the bible may be something you trust and it fail you, that now you trust nothing.

I have explained in detail, the letters of the pages are nothing.. its the meaning behind them.. and most of that apparently is hidden anyway without revelation of the Holy Spirit.
The letters alone can be ripped apart and interpreted 57 different ways... so that not the power... the power is the original message from the mouth of God to the heart of the writer.
If you want to look at all the "interpretations" and tell me how imperfect they are... that means nothing.. thats the work of man, not God.

Just because the bible it Holy, does not make it perfect in the pure sense... no more than you are perfect once God makes you Holy.

It whether you are looking from the vantage point of earth from below, or heaven from above..... Heaven doesn't see imperfection when its covered in the blood of atonement of love.

I marvel all the time at how hidden it is... things that are so obvious seem so hidden to many.

Its been so long since I too could not see the scriptures.. I forgot how blind being blind really is.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 22 2007, 02:55 AM) [snapback]410053[/snapback]</div>

If my words incite fear, its not the words fault nor mine, but in the heart of the reciever.

The same words that incite fear in one person, encites jubilation in another.

And if there is hate..... hate in only in the heart of the person who carries it.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 22 2007, 03:18 AM) [snapback]410055[/snapback]</div>

It would be great if we could hook up... you may see my horns are not really that sharp.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 22 2007, 04:18 AM) [snapback]410055[/snapback]</div>

If they were all alive having a conversation, he would offer them the same he offers any of us... forgivness of sin and eternal life. He would totally condem their message. There would be none of this "I see your point of view" stuff you seem to think is so politically correct.

On another note, where do you stand on Rev 22:18-19?

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Mar 22 2007, 06:47 AM) [snapback]410063[/snapback]</div>

Or in Central Virginia, same here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Mar 22 2007, 06:47 AM) [snapback]410063[/snapback]</div>

I'm from New Jersey (as the quote from the John Gorka song says)- outside of Philadelphia, but my parents are from Atlantic City and I spend a great deal of my youth at the Jersey Shore. Springsteen rocks!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 22 2007, 05:18 AM) [snapback]410055[/snapback]</div>

Sure, if you're ever in RI look me up. It's a small state so I'm easy to find.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 22 2007, 04:01 AM) [snapback]410075[/snapback]</div>

:lol: :lol: :lol:

With respect to that last clause, incidentally, at what point does "god" reach down and put a stop to self destructive acts, like genocide, for example. I'm sure in the last century alone millions of "saved" believers met untimely deaths at the hands of genocidal murderers (and it's still happening). When genocidal campaigns have been arrested, every time it has been man's efforts that ended them - they would have continued except for MAN's intervention against them. In that light, your self contradicting sentence above would have made more sense (and not contradicted itself) had it said:

"God gives us lots of control; if not for OUR intervention, God would have destroyed us long ago."

Come to think of it, didn't that jackass try that out at least once already, drowning everybody?

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Mar 22 2007, 08:41 AM) [snapback]410092[/snapback]</div>

Amen.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 22 2007, 11:10 AM) [snapback]410169[/snapback]</div>

Mark, do you have no fear of God at all? I know you may be upset with Windstrings, but really if there is a God in heaven, (I believe), do you want to be on His bad side?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 22 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]410274[/snapback]</div>

If I'm correct, Mark doesn't believe in god. Therefore he can have no fear of god. And, since his belief is strong enough, there's no point in him trying to stay on his good side.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 22 2007, 10:10 AM) [snapback]410169[/snapback]</div>

You give mankind way too much credit.. if you ever get taught by the Holy Spirit, you will get a self discovery that reveals the heart is indeed desperately wicked and who can know it?



If not for bad, we would not know good.. if not for the sick, we would never know healing.

The bad is allowed in measure.. not enough to destroy us all, but to be used as a tool as God uses Satans tools against him.



The Bad is always countered with Good... as sin abounds, grace abounds the more.



He promised to his children, he would never allow more to be put on them than they can bear in the way of temptation, but always makes an escape.



God is indeed in control, but in that "control".. evil is allowed for the time being.



Thats why people can spit at God and call him names and live any way they want and get away with it for the time being...although they still have to be under the laws of reaping and sowing.. you still reap what you sow.. but the wrath of God is reserved till later.. that won't be fun at all to be here then.



Today is the day of grace and salvation.... people have foolishly interpreted that grace as God being a blind, stupid old man that doesn't see anything nor will do anything about it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Mar 22 2007, 11:26 AM) [snapback]410290[/snapback]</div>

Bingo.

Thanks, Proco!

I might add, incidentally, that even if I DID believe in some super "godlike" entity, I would NOT believe such an entity would be so thin-skinned and insecure of its own identity that a speck of dust like a human being calling it a jackass (or worse) could ruffle so much as an atom of its self assurance, or make it angry. I couldn't possibly respect something THAT childishly immature.

By the way, I am NOT upset (nor ever have been) at Windstrings or Loveit or anyone else in these threads with whom I disagree. Frustrated at our inability to see each other's point of view, yes, but not upset, nor angry, nor resentful, nor any other negative feeling toward the person. I try always to direct my scorn, derision, sarcasm and other rhetorical devices at IDEAS I disagree with, NOT the person - and I apologize if my rhetorical ineptitude makes me sound angry or upset.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 22 2007, 10:10 AM) [snapback]410169[/snapback]</div>

Curse God if you want…. But if he's not real, you're the fool for being mad at someone who doesn't exist and if he is real, you're the bigger fool!



If I didn't care about you Mark ..... I wouldn't be trying to convince you otherwise on this forum.



What have I to gain?..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 22 2007, 09:01 AM) [snapback]410075[/snapback]</div>

:lol: :lol:

I trust in God. Not some book. So, is God nothing?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 22 2007, 04:03 PM) [snapback]410371[/snapback]</div>

Correct. No evidence for its existence whatsoever.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Mar 21 2007, 03:38 PM) [snapback]409680[/snapback]</div>

Why are you being so subtle........tell us what you realy mean. How is my comment that those who believe in one god and Jesus believe their is only 2 sides unloving at all. I consider it great love to prevent the deceptions of Satan.

Reminds me of an interview one time with a girl who was alleging a crime (I doubted her story). When i asked her to clarify a contridiction...she started crying and called me mean. Some people think you MUST agree with everything they say or you are mean. And some of us here do not........

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 22 2007, 06:18 AM) [snapback]410055[/snapback]</div>

I am assuming this did not include me.....but I agree that Jesus would have spoken to all these people...but he would have also pointed out they were wrong and if they wanted to see God, they would have to believe in him.

And THAT, partners, is the bottom line. TJ, what I miss in your posts, is acknowledgement that, by deciding yourself what in the Bible is and is not true, you allow everyone to do the same...therefore NONE of it is true. God said his word would never pass away....so at least one of those words must be correct.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Mar 22 2007, 05:12 PM) [snapback]410379[/snapback]</div>

Alrighty then.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Mar 22 2007, 06:00 PM) [snapback]410407[/snapback]</div>

It would of course include you. I offer my hand of friendship to anyone. I offer my desire to debate to anyone.

Of course everyone can decide for themselves what is real, or not real, about the Bible. It's what makes the book so strong.

I believe in Christ with or without the Bible. Part of what I have been saying all along.

What I have decided, for myself, is that while the Bible has parts that are 100% correct, there are parts that are fabricated. And to not acknowledge that would be akin to not telling the truth, at least for me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 22 2007, 02:03 PM) [snapback]410371[/snapback]</div>

Wow TJ.. its amazing how your rational can make things so simple and be so mixed wrong?
What do you mean???

Are you really trying to say that because you trust in God, his book means nothing?

Are you really saying you can separate the two?

Have you forgotten the mystery that the word was God before the book was ever written?

(John 1:1 NKJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(John 1:2 NKJV) He was in the beginning with God.
(John 1:3 NKJV) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
(John 1:4 NKJV) In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
(John 1:5 NKJV) And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The darkness still does not comprehend it..... since were argueing on how old the bible is.... it was before creation.
I've already tried to explain the words on paper mean nothing.. its the voice that spoke them and the meaning that wrote them and the authority behind it that means something.


Isn't the God you trust in the one that says not to take away from his book?

Its easy to be totally decieved if you toss out all of his word and then feel that your totally ok.

What measure do you have to know if your decieved or not..... none but your own reasoning?

If a woman or man cheats on his spouse and says.. "it feels so right, so it must be good!".. does that make it right?.. Are not they decieved if they go on feelings alone?..

Feelings are like a leaf in the wind....tossed to fro by every wind.....

The five fold ministry is to help prevent people becoming a law unto themselves and getting so decieved they cannot see.... remember deception that is seen, is not deception.

(Eph 4:11 NKJV) And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
(Eph 4:12 NKJV) for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
(Eph 4:13 NKJV) till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
(Eph 4:14 NKJV) that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

I think one main area that may be the source of your struggle is that you don't understand how God speaks.. so you can't trust the word that was given through those means.

(Jer 18:5 NKJV) Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
(Jer 18:6 NKJV) "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!

What do you suppose he means when he says "the word of the lord came to me"?

It's repeated many times throughout the bible.

Today every christian can hear this way that have the gift of the Holy Spirit.

When a word from God is given for the purpose of passing the message onto someone else or others, it is called the gift of prophecy.

Like I said.. we are barely scratching the surface of what are the basic gifts and tools of the kingdom in christian warfare.

Do you understand all the fruits of the spirit?.. what about the gifts?.... have you ever excercised any of them?

Do you know what it means to move in the power of the Holy Spirit where you have power, can hear, can see things, can know things and do things you could never do without the Holy Spirit.
Have you ever prayed for someone and watch the power of God heal them right before your eyes?

TJ, don't discount spiritual things because you don't understand them.. they are real and very powerful and I will go one step further to say its really impossible to walk the christian walk without that power.

Most of the gifts of the spirit operate without the need of the human mind... even prophecy and the speaking gifts....... the mind is only needed to deliver the message, but not to hear it.. and unless the mind is surrendered to the flows of the spirit, it can even ruin the delivery.
Many christians know what God speaks to the deep inside but don't know how to get it to words... that too is another gift.
Moving from the word of knowledge to prophecy or even personal edification is another gift.

But since I can't talk about spiritual matters because the only ones that will understand them are the ones that have that same spirit.

(Rom 8:5 NKJV) For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
(Rom 8:6 NKJV) For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(Rom 8:7 NKJV) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
(Rom 8:8 NKJV) So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The above scripture explains why so many cannot understand God, nor comprehend his word.

Its never wise to toss out things you can't understand unless your sure you understand it first and find it fallible.

I have not found the word of God fallible at all..

You are missing soooooooooo much to leave any part of the word of God out.
It all speaks of and testify of the other to fit together like a beautiful picture that shows the glory of God.

Every time I show you something your missing or don't have, you take it wrong and think I'm condemning you.
Don't call this condemnation... its light that reveals.... take it as a good thing that there is something your missing rather than taking it personal like someone doesn't like you.

(Acts 28:25 NKJV) So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers,
(Acts 28:26 NKJV) "saying, 'Go to this people and say: "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive;

Have you ever heard the phrase that if the cat doesn't liked being stroked the wrong way, the cat needs to turn around?

Aren't you wanting God to conform to your word, rather than you conforming to His?
By conforming to your word.... you are wanting the blessings of God and his acceptance but all on your terms of understanding and disciplines.

TJ, do you really endorse that woodstock powerflower mentality that says.. if it feels good do it and if people are getting along and consenting its all ok?

Does your religion only concern itself with pleasing man..... just where does God come in the picture?