Downing Street memo

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Orsino\";p=\"110517)</div>

Many people start with a conclusion and work backwards. They then look for evidence to support that conclusion and ignore any evidence that detracts from it. This is the new logic.

And when you have an entire news industry that loves the way this new kind of logic works, and push it along, you end up with people who don't need evidence at all.

Throw * in * a * little * emotion, * and * you * can * get * some * to * believe * anything. Facts just clutter things up.



*9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11

 

A recent incident with a cleric in England is almost a direct quotation from the above listed quote from me Orsino, and note the TOTAL lack of any credible response by the Muslim world on the acts of these terrorists.

 

Sadam Hussein's government paid for and provided $25,000 to each and every suicide bombers's family from years to the time of 9-11. That same government had training camps in the Kurdish areas, these were captured. That same government harbored hundreds of Al Queida militants. Recent confessions and intelligence coming out now indicates a support of, participation and encouragement both financial and in ressources for Al Queida going back to before and after the first U.S. gulf war. I can easily to go many areas on the internet and find stuff the Iraq government was doing to foster and participate in this world wide problem. True many other Arab countries were also not neutral, but this country was in fact deeply involved with Al Queida and the resulting actions of that organization. Links and indications are there, were there and even now are still there. Just recently a noted Iraqui prisoner has provided more such link, as this person approaches a trial in Iraq for his crimes against his people.

 

Many people start with a conclusion and work backwards. They then look for evidence to support that conclusion and ignore any evidence that detracts from it. This is the new logic.

And when you have an entire news industry that loves the way this new kind of logic works, and push it along, you end up with people who don't need evidence at all.

Suggest you use your own medicine, all you look at is what supports conclusions and assumptions you already have.

 

Right Scotty., Taiwan is not a peninsula but an island, my bad there, I knew that..think I got Hong Kong and Taiwan mixed up.

 

IA,

Thank you for giving me some facts to work with. However, you have provided zero evidence to indicate that Saddam had a CURRENT connection to terror.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"110559)</div>

Yes, that’s what I said in my post. He sent them some money. He also gave speeches supporting those bombers. How is this of any consequence when it cost the terrorists upwards of a million dollars to pull off 9/11? When it takes millions to run terrorist training camps? Yes, this was a very bad thing, but it is hardly consequential to overall world terror.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"110559)</div>

The key wording here is “in Kurdish areasâ€. You see, because of the UN no fly zones, Saddam had zero influence in the Kurdish areas. In all the areas that Saddam DID have control off, there were zero training camps. A reality based person might think that this suggests Saddam was against theses kinds of camps. And you probably don’t know this because Faux News didn't want you to know this, but among the papers that Saddam was found with when he was captured in his “spider holeâ€, were papers telling his supporters to NOT cooperate with the foreigners entering Iraq. You see, he hated Al Qaeda. He also hated Islam, but he did use it when it served his purposes.
But Al Qaeda is based in Islam – a distorted version of Islam, but Islam nonetheless, and this was a key difference to Saddam. The documentation is overwhelming that Saddam HATED Osama Bin Laden, and that Osama HATED Saddam.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"110559)</div>

Actually, we have tons of proof that Saddam was involved in terrorism back in the 1980s and early 1990s. Back when Reagan and Bush 1 were sending him money and weapons. This has never been in dispute. But we are talking about RECENT involvement. Try circa 1998 to 2003. Your post helps strengthen my case.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"110559)</div>

Actually every so called Al Qaeda operative that was “harbored†by Iraq has been totally discredited. There remains no proof that makes its way from places like Faux News and withstands actual scrutiny. Could you list me some names of these “operativesâ€. I’d like to look them up.


So IA, I’d like to thank you for strengthening my point that from about 1998 till 2003, Saddam had a trivial and inconsequential connection to terror and to Al Qaida.

But now thanks to GW, it’s a training ground for terrorists. And people are flocking to that cause.

So again, thank you GW for making us phenomenally LESS safe. Will it actually take a mushroom cloud in a US city for you to finally realize that GW screwed up?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prius04\";p=\"110577)</div>

I second that. Samething was mention on the news (of because not F*X "News").

 

Good point efusco!

In my work, I have come to know people from around the world, a good many of them Muslim. Of the Muslims I know ALL as in 100% and without exception totally condemn ALL forms of terrorism. While I have never read any portion of the Koran, I'm told by my Muslim friends that it also condemns these sort of actions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tleonhar\";p=\"110600)</div>

I understand that English translations of the Koran may not be authenic. I used to read my copy and the language is at best confusing and at worst inflammatory. I have come to the conclusion that most muslims are peaceful but not because of the Koran. In one breath it will speak of mercy and in the next destruction of traitors. Two years ago 60 Minutes ran a chilling piece. They interviewed high school children of wealthy muslims attending a Muslim school. They seem very normal and condemned violence until asked if they condemned 9/11. Each student responded that they could not condemn 9/11 and that people had to understand the oppression of Islam that has existed. 60 Minute producers were stunned and let the people running the school view the tape. They demanded that 60 Minutes retape this session after they had instructed the students what to say. 60 Minutes agreed to the retape but they insisted that they show both versions. Muslims have tried to reverse this educational practice which still exists in some places. It has been a huge problem in Saudi Arabia. But I don't believe it is accurate to portray the Koran as providing a message of peace. Obviously peace loving Muslims will contend that it does, but that is at least questionable. The tide is turning, but there has been incredible silence up to now on the part of the Muslim world in failing to condemn terrorism. They are just now starting to speak out and I believe this will eventually make a difference. It may result in us winning the war in Iraq that we should never be in. But the price Iraqis have paid for eventual victory is staggering what with anywhere from 30,000 to 75,000 dead citizens, ruined cities and wrecked infrastructure. BTW, the 30,000 plus dead is a figure published by internet bloggers. The government restrains our media from publishing this information. Terrorism is a bad idea and cannot sustain itself indefinitely. The question is what will the final price be and what will we have at the other end. These are questions never intelligently address by the current adminstration.

 

And please don't ignore almost all the 9/11 airplane terrorists were Saudis, Saudi Arabia had the money and influence to be directly linked to 9/11, Osama Bin Laden is a Saudi, and the Bush family, including Dubya himself, has many personal ties to the Saudi royal family.

The previously 'discredited' story that Osama's related family members were flown out of the USA (courtesy of the US government) after 9/11 before most commercial flights resumed was recently admitted to by the government as being true!

Top it with the discredited WMD and terrorism links, etc etc.. invading Iraq seems to be more of a plan of vendetta and misdirection than based on any actual immediate threat, esp right after hitting Afghanistan already for 9/11. Remember those days when Bush said IMMEDIATE invasion was 'necessary' because of the 'imminent' WMD threat? Where was this immediate threat now years later?

After all, at the time when Iraq was being invaded, North Korea was jumping up and down saying they had nukes, and pretty much ignored, while Iraq was invaded over 'presumed' WMDs. You sure haven't seen any subsequent action to 'liberate' and eliminate the 'imminent' WMD 'threat' of North Korea. Bush doesn't pick a fight he can't win.

How about Iran? We got them surrounded on two sides right now. Aren't they harboring terrorists, and they have nuke capability too? What makes Iraq so special out of all of the 'trouble making' nations of that area?

Shouldn't we take out India and Pakistan for developing and reselling post-Soviet nuclear technology?

Elephant in the room I say.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike\";p=\"110674)</div>

For the most part I agree with your post, however, this point is not correct. And this is an important point because it is used by the right wing to discredit the real truth.

The Osama family WAS NOT allowed to fly out of the USA after 9/11, although ONE plane did leave the USA and that plane DID have relatives of Osama on the plane. The US Government later said that it was a mistake to let that plane leave. (How convenient!!)

However, what DID happen, and was equally horrendous, was that when the entire USA citizenry were grounded, INCLUDING the first GW Bush and Bill Clinton, planes were criss crossing the USA collecting hundreds of Saudi Nationals, including numerous relatives of Osama, and flying those relatives to Florida.

This happened in the immediate hours after 9/11 and this is not in dispute. Though you can be sure it minimal play on Faux News. Once the approval was made to let planes fly again, those Saudi's were then immediately flown out of the USA. Many of those Saudi's were interviewed for 10 minutes or less. You can ask any Police Detective in the USA, or any Prosecutor in the USA, and they will tell you that a 10 minute interview is preposterously miniscule under these circumstances.

So be careful, when it is said that the Saudi's were allowed to leave the country right after 9/11. You allow people on the right to call you on that, and then get away with not having to explain what really happened. In other words, you set it up for obfuscation to take place.

And what really happened was a horrible breach of security and rules of law and rules of investigation. And the US Government has still not be forced to explain themselves on this one. Instead, they just call us liars when we suggest that all the planes left the USA prematurely, because they didn't.

BUT WHAT DID HAPPEN WAS JUST AS HORRENDOUS. And you've got to admit, these obfuscators are truly brilliant. Most Americans remain unaware of the special treatment the Saudi's got. The very people who were most to blame for 9/11.

 

An addition to my last post....

Some of the Saudi Nationals that were not interviewed were diplomatic personnel. So for them, it can be justified that the interview was brief. But this only applied to a small number of them, and to zero relatives of Osama. By the way, we now know that at least 2 of the people who were allowed to leave the USA were on "watch lists". And this is only the part that they are telling us. Much of what happened in those days remains classified.

I include this bit of information because not including it might allow those bent on obfuscation an opportunity to do just that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike\";p=\"110674)</div>

As a minor but important correction, they got their nuclear power program and - indirectly - their nuclear weapon program courtesy of the Canadian taxpayer.

http://www.ccnr.org

http://www.ccnr.org/chronology.html

(Scroll down to November of 1956)

http://www.ccnr.org/india_press.html

http://www.ccnr.org/myth_2.html

http://www.ccnr.org/exports_3.html#3.2

http://www.ccnr.org/india_tritium.html

And many more links about Canada's disproportionate involvement in nuclear weapons around the world.

 

A true Muslim faithful, fully follows these and many other commandment from their Prophet Mohammed:

When many noted Islamic or Muslim cleric directly and both in Arabic and English condenm the expression of faith in the manner noted in the Koran and requires a modern view point of such, and instructs his congregation in a major way in English and Arabic..one cannot distinguish the true faith of the true Islamic or Muslim. Key is an open admission that the prophet's words related only to his time, and that must be clearly stated both in English and Arabic.

WHY do you say, in two languages ?? Because only the truth can be spoken in the native tongue, anything spoken in the infidel's tongue, is not to be considered relevant and can be the truth or the unthruth. But a true Muslim cannot ever lie in his own tongue.

Islam is to be imposed by force: Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to
fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be
worshipped
but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but
Allah
, his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not).
Vol.
4:196

Leaving Islam punishable by death: Mohammed said, "Whoever changes his
Islamic religion, kill him." Vol. 9:57
A Muslim must not be killed if he murders a non-Muslim: Mohammed said,
" No
Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50

Ethnic cleansing is encouraged: Mohammed said to the Jews, "You should
know
that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (Mohammed) and I want
to
expel you from this land (The Arabian Peninsula)." Vol. 4:392.
Mohammed's
last words at his deathbed were: "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of
the
Arabian Peninsula." Vol. 5:716

Holy war (Jihad) is a guarantee of heaven. Mohammed said, "The person
who
participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him
to
do so except belief in Allah and His Apostle, will be recompensed by
Allah
either with a reward (if he survives) or will be admitted to paradise
(if he
is killed). " Vol. 1:35

I could give you hundreds of examples of the hatred and brutality of
the
Muslim religion, but you can discover them for yourself by reading the
Quran
(also known as the Koran) and associated Islamic religious books.
(Interestingly, when I tried to find a site where you could read every
word
of the Koran, not just the verses their publicists want you to read, I
was
not successful. In fact, one site -
www.islamicity.com/mosque/TOPICI.HTM -
which had a topic search that should have helped readers find verses,
had
totally censored the words "Jihad" and Infidel" from the searches.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"110821)</div>

Those verses weren't being censored. You couldn't find those verses in the Koran because the verses you listed above are not in the Koran. I wasted about 90 minutes trying to find those quotes using various language and various translations of the Koran. Then I did an internet wide search and bingo. I found those sayings, but not in the Koran.

Islam has had multiple books written over the centuries. Some of your quotes from above were taken from what are referred to as Hadiths. These are books separate from the Koran. And if you are using texts separate from the Koran to attack Islam, you cannot deny that some pretty horrible stuff has been written over the years by so called "Christian" scholars, separate from the Bible.

Now I've heard many times that the Koran has some hateful language, but you will have to do better to post it here.

And as for finding copies of the Koran online, I had no trouble. I found dozens of sites. I even found some where various reviewers were discussing which translation was the best, with numerous links. One even had translations into dozens of other languages.

 

Prius 04
The quotes in the hundred numerations in the text used and cited in the previous post, mean a start to the tenth up to the top of that 3rd number in single verses. Example 5-617 means 5-60 to 5-77, (17) verses added to the 6 (tenth) place. I was able to confirm most content when reading the numbered quotes given in relations to the posted excerpt of the Koran on that site, using the edited Koran.

The words infidel, has been blocked and linked to infidelity, the work Karis which means infidel has been blocked. The word Jihad, sintax and translation has been blocked. This is virtually 100% complete in all U.S., European and Asian sites. You may find some arabic sites, if they happen to have english translations, more clearly pointing to these points listed on othe previous post.

True there are different translations and views, and most importantly SECTS., but if the litteral translations of the Koran from the ORIGINAL text IN ARABIC are taken., these statements are there.

Almost all Muslim sites WORLD WIDE., that have open access to NON MUSLIMS., have this characteristic or filtering, that is a fact. Suggest you dig around and get an "Islamic" Password?? Why do you think Rushdy and many critics have been "dealt with"? That is because they themselves took it upon to report litteral and passages that an infidel would never get to see.

That is the information I have, and yes distinct SECTS., such as Wahannabi's (from Saudi Arabia and Paskitan predominantly) hold such beliefs and teach those beliefs. It is said that as much as 60% of the arab world agree with these beliefs, due to media and the teachings in that part of the world, THESE PEOPLE JUST WANT US DEAD.

What I still don't get, if such a state exists the way you see it there Prius 04., why has it been so difficult for these PEOPLE to reject and condenm this form of terrorism?

Most in the Christian world and Jewish world freely admit that many passages in the Old and New Testaments were meant for those times, and may no longer apply in todays more civilized and complex world. Both books are fully open..and the New Testament is a book of Peace, Love and Forgiveness, Turn the other Cheek.....

 

Actually the Bible has similar quotes to the Koran concerning murder and killing as well as many other twisted things. Am I saying that the Bible is bad, by no means. The point is anyone can use cut n paste to twist their own version of what a book condones or preaches. To say that certain verses in the Bible are not followed today because 'that was the times' is something of an inaccurate statement. Many of our present day laws are steeped in Bible history and a part of our present day society. Far from turing the other cheek. As we have evolved as a society we've taken what does apply today while discarding that which doesn't Obviously, the same can be applied to the Muslim faith as well. Not all Muslims condone what the terrorists do. Lack of a joined, organized outcry against it, however, does not mean any of them much less all of them support it in any fashion.

I agree with the above statement made in relation to 'christian' extreamists of this country. You didn't see Christian groups much less religions out in the streets enmass protesting or speaking out against the actions of the individuals in the events in this country. It in no way ment they supported the individuals actions either. what we have today with the war on terror and the Muslim faith is the political scapegoat of our generation. At the beginning of the 20th century it was the Germans. Later on it was the Asians, then Koreans, Vietnamese, and Russians. It's something that when the heat is turned on an administration can use to distract and focus the anger a country feels on another group. Something this administration has become quite good at. Anytime the heat was on Bush or his administration we had the terror alert raised and were spoonfed paranioa and fear. during the election it was something new practically everyday. After the election not a lot of anything. I'm sorry but I'm not going to buy into the fear and paranoia that an administration uses to shift focus off the task at hand. That is why in h e double hockey sticks do we have less people in Afganistan, looking for the man that actually masterminded the 9-11 attacks, than we have policing New York? It really shows the lack of focus or at least the desire to shift it on something other than what we were led to believe was the focus.

The fact is with terrorism this is a war with no end. Even if we are fortunate enough to one day pull all of our soldiers out of Iraq terrorism will still exist. All it takes is one disgruntled individual to walk into a Home Depot and purchase the required items to make whatever destrutive device they want. No matter how many cameras, id's, legislation, or rights stripped fromt he American citizen we allow we will never be 100% secure. Any doubt of that can be removed by looking at what happened in London. By giving into the fear we are allowing the terrorists to win. By stripping away the rights that make us America the terrorists win. By jumping everytime a tortured terrorist suspect gives 'information' we let them win. I, myself, choose not to live in fear, profile races, or judge an entire religion based on the actions of a few extreamists. I'm an American dangit and I spit in the face of someone that thinks they will control me or my life with fear tactics.

 

It is difficult with all this, and a difficult task has been started. We can debate all day and forever, this has been going on for the ages. Our way of life should not be destroyed and changed, and neither should be destroy another way of life. I do not think we are., but obviously there are other views. I don't live in fear, I am a veteran and I have fought, if I was young enough I would not hesitate to protect what we have here. I still do not understand why prominent Muslim leaders do not strongly and continually condenm these actions to their own people, they do not do that. Christians and Christian Scholars have long established that the bible is an older document, and that it is today taken in CONTEXT with the modern world.

 

Your earlier post referred to "the Muslim world in general." A quotation from a single cleric doesn't support that. Quotes from a dozen clerics wouldn't support such a sweeping mischaracterization.

Whatever you think of Islam, an equally nasty passage can be found in the Bible:

Deuteronomy 20:10-15
Deuteronomy 22:13-24
Number 31:1-18
Judges 11:30-40
Leviticus 20:9-22