Downing Street memo

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee\";p=\"103966)</div>

Guess what Galaxee, our taxes haven't gone down either, in fact, when we figure in property taxes to pay for Dubya's unfunded no child left behind school mandate, they have actually gone up a quite a bit. But then again, I don't have to worry about getting bumped into a higher tax bracket since I no longer get those nice annual pay raises that I did during the Clinton years. Also, since I have 17,000 fewer co-workers at my company thanks to Dubyanomics (hmm new word), it's easy to find a parking space.

 

Panama Canal/COTSCO?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103877)</div>

Actually, in regards to the Panama Canal, the canal and the Canal Zone surrounding it were administered by the United States until 1999 when control was relinquished to Panama (not China). This was the result of the September 7, 1977 signing of the Torrijos - Carter Treaty in which US president Jimmy Carter conceded to Panamanian demands for control. The treaty called for a gradual handover that placed the canal completely under Panamanian jurisdiction by December 31, 1999.

Panama's Law No. 5 was passed on January 16, 1997 to confirm 25-to-50-year leases for the U.S.-built ports of Cristobal on the Atlantic end of the canal and Balboa on the Pacific end and "operation of the canal" to a Chinese Hong Kong corporation named Hutchison Whampoa operating under the name Hutchison Port Holdings and headed by Li Ka Shing, the wealthiest Chinese individual. Accusations that "Red China controls the Panama Canal" are based on this. (source for the above: wikipedia.com)

Claiming that "Another presidential administration sold the Panama Canal to the Chinese Government..." is disingenuous at best.

So what the hell is "COTSCO"? Do you mean "COSTCO"? In either case, can you please provide proof that whichever one you mean is linked to Chinese Oil, since I haven't been able to find such information anywhere. I certainly agree with you about not buying at Walmart! Their claims to the contrary, they extensively use sweat-shop labor, import from countries such as China, and ruin the economy of small towns which are unable to compete with items produced with cheap labor. In addition, they donate primarily to Republican politicians/PACS; although I'm sure you would see that as a positive attribute. :lol:

 

Meanwhile grad schools are flooded because people with bachelor's degrees can't find jobs and have decided to wait out the Dubya years in grad school until the economy recovers... (that was my idea anyway)

But there's no NIH money to fund our medical research so we're all going to be here forever... hence the average time-to-PhD increasing in the US and staying about the same in Europe...

I am lucky to find a parking spot in my parking lot despite the $250 a year I pay for the privilege of parking there...

 

I have to throw this in. Taxes are not passed by Presidents or Governors or Mayors. Taxes are passed by congressmen, representatives, and council members. And Republican though I am, I am royally PISSED at our reps for raising all sorts of taxes. The reductions of Federal taxes have simply been replaced by more local taxes. BUT, everyone of you who asks for more services from "the government" are helping support the idea of more taxes.

Vote NO on all property taxes. Demand your reps cut spending and reduce taxes across the board. My aggregate tax rate is about 42%. Indecent!!!!

Subsidies/tax breaks for new business/corporate welfare/federal flood insurance/NPR/Endowment for the arts/grants/ on and on and on.

Anyway, we need more education on the realities of gov't. Oh, also, the president can only deploy the Marines, the other forces require permission form COngress. Which Bush got. So let's just remember to spread the blame around a bit.

We have the government we deserve.

 

OK, #@%!*&^% you Republican controlled congress

 

Responding to you all I saw few factual stuff there, but the main point I'll make right off that first one from Prius 4, there about the "MJ" is that Bush never LIED openly about his actions, whereas a little as Clinton did with MJ he still did not inhale. You are probably right Prius4, Clinton preferred chasing skirts. BUT the DISHONESTY is what I find objectionable.

I'm celebrating the 4th of July BYE you all for awhile, the Truth will SET you FREE.

 

PS thank you schmika, they'r blind with hatred of one man and one party. I never look at it from a political point, I consider ramifications to the country as a whole. Most here pick one issue or a group issue, and search and seek to bolster it. I seek honesty, intefgrity, morals, and just doing what is right, and who ever does it is who I support. I hate many policies of the Bush Administration, irresponsible govt growth near the top, but I judge on the whole package. Have to date not seen much from the other side, as to IDEAS AND SOLUTIONS, I know all the rhetoric and bad stuff BUSH has done according to them, been there done that.....tell us something NEW....Don't like the leave no child behind ?? What do you know about it, I teach in Texas...can't say the system has greatly improved from ANY of your side's mandates...., you all had it for 40 years in the congress, and had a democrat president for 8 years before BUSH., did not see a great change then...WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO OFFER ? (PS not money and unrealistic programs either, heard all that before, especially at election time). Anyway Schmika...the truth hurts them...stay strong, happy 4th of July and all that.

 

PS I teach CAD and drafting, so my grammar is irrelevant to my teaching duties, I am quite competent and qualified in AutoCAD and many other computer applications. My drawings do not have spelling errors, I check the dictionary if I don't know how to spell a word in a drawing. Plus this is a chat room not an english class or an english test., it is like conversing, and I just post, I don't "spell check" etc...if that is your idea of deflating the validity of my counterpoints, guess what, you're turning more people off WITH THAT so go for it, I guess you must think Conservatives are not very smart (you don't have to remind yourself how smart you are if you are smart). Happy 4th of July and God Bless America.

 

English class is out, and Bye P4., I will not miss your political insights. Trouble is insights and insults are 2 diff things. You have a thin skin when you are insulted, yet expect the other to just accept insulting and rudimentary logic, without basis or facts. You insult people in just the way you see things and the way you state things, and we are supposed to accept it, just like in a union meeting or a political rally. You want free inter-action, yet only from your position, when the trash is thrown back at you, you then claim insulting and divisive ...I won't talk to you no more...

Hey dude wake up and smell the roses, you may have pushed zillions around with your rhetoric garbaaage, but I will toss it back. Sticks and Stones may break my Bones but Names WILL Never hurt me. and that goes for the english professor there too.

 

sigh...
i'm bowing out on this one, unless something pertinent to me appears again.

ialtmann, you are quick to insult the education of others while admitting you can't even spell. i'd say your opinion of yourself should be no better than the opinion you hold of prius04. you're being hypocritical.

i don't want to deal with that. i'm out.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103874)</div>

Where is the evidence for this? I’ve never heard this part of the story before.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103874)</div>

I’m not aware of anyone begrudging GW religious convictions on this thread. Who said they don’t like it that Bush prays? I actually find it admirable if he did.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103874)</div>

There you go again questioning my patriotism. This is again an inappropriate tactic in debating.

Notice how I’m attacking your tactics, and not you personally? Try it sometime. It helps your arguments immensely.

 

First off to IA, I am very sorry if you feel I insulted you. But I tried to confine my comments to a criticism of your conclusions and your views. If you feel I went beyond that, then I am truly sorry. It happens when exchanges get heated, but it really should not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103877)</div>

This is pure hogwash.

The historical fact is that Bush 1 and then the Clinton administration predicted that NK was on track to have a nuclear bomb by 1998 or 1999.

Albright and others negotiated a deal whereby NK would get something if they stopped that research. What happened was NK then took the enriched uranium that they had up to then and stored it in a bunker. And NK was forced to allow UN inspectors to check that bunker regularly, as well as via overhead satellites. The UN kept inspecting, and those bunkers had never been opened, plus with the instruments they had, the UN could tell if the uranium was still in that bunker, plus satellite surveillance also verified that the uranium was still there. There were also UN cameras in that bunker. So there is no doubt – to the fact based community – that NK’s nuclear bomb program remained halted.

This is how it remained until Bush showed up and started his cowboy diplomacy, some of which John Bolton was in charge of. He pulled back on the deal, NK threw the UN inspectors out and opened that bunker and restarted his nuclear bomb program. Now NK has the bomb.

So I’ll say it again, thanks to GW. NK now has at least one, probably 5 nuclear weapons.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103877)</div>

This does not argue against my point that Europe is more united than they have ever been. Don’t forget, there was an 11 year period in the USA between the Dec of Independence and the Constitution. And also don’t forget, the first American constitution was called the Articles of Confederation. And the Articles of Confederation failed miserable.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103877)</div>

What does Panama have to do with China?
Plus, the point I was making was the danger in having China own so much of our debt. That ownership gives them leverage. This cannot be a good thing for America.

I’ll assume that your suggestion that the USA sold the Panama canal to China as a misprint. We gave that canal to Panama. But you see, that was the original deal back when we built it. We were required to eventually give it back. Carter only gave it back a few years early. Why did he give it back early? So we could have some leverage over Panama for awhile afterwards.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103877)</div>

There you go again attacking my patriotism. So you are suggesting that because I think GW is doing a bad job, more people are joining Al Qaida?

But as for us killing more terrorists than are being recruited, this is not what the fact based community is seeing. A recent CIA report came to that very conclusion.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103877)</div>

I never said we need to give Afghanistan back to the Taliban. But what I think should have happened is the USA should have finished that war, the real war against those that caused 9/11, and not put that war on hold for the diversion in Iraq.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103877)</div>

John Bolton has been in charge of the American agency in charge of the non proliferation of nuclear weapons. And according to most world agencies that study this kind of thing, there has been a significant increase in nuclear proliferation while Bolton was in charge. And according to those same agencies, there has mow been some progress in slowing down nuclear proliferation over the last 6 months or so. Roughly the same time that Bolton has been off doing something else.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103877)</div>

When a person includes all the taxes that they pay, and all the fees and other burdens, there is no doubt that the burden of taxation has increased markedly on the middle class. I’m including state taxes and local property taxes. Now you might say that Bush did not raise those taxes, and you would be absolutely correct. But that’s irrelevant. All taxes and burdens are intertwined. And when the Feds no longer fund something, but the people still want that something, then it has to get paid for. And for the most part it is getting paid for, thru higher local and state taxes, higher fees and less services from Gov. And when there are less services provided by Government, it means you have to pay for them yourself. This needs to also go into that equation. So when you figure it out, the burden on the middle class has skyrocketed, and the burden on the rich has diminished.
And I haven’t even gone into the tax shift to our children for them to pay in the future.

So again, GW is not a tax cutter, he is a tax shifter. And probably just about the best one in history.

 

Here are some quotes regarding patriotism and dissent.

To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
Theodore Roosevelt: A famous Republican.

Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionist and rebel men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.
Dwight D. Eisenhower: A famous Republican.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
Thomas Jefferson: alas, a Democrat.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"104017)</div>

I beg to differ. That attitude typifies everything that is wrong with our educational system. I will never send my child to a school where teachers are not capable of speaking and writing English correctly, regardless of what subject they may teach. It sets a terrible role model for a teacher to be incapable of properly speaking the language of our country.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"104035)</div>

Since I believe I have implied previously, within the context that you seem to have no idea what an inflammatory statement is, you obviously have no idea just what an insult is either. There is no way I can take seriously any claim you may make that someone else is insulting you either on purpose or inadvertently. I hope others similarly discredit your claims.

For the record, this is an insult, your verbal behavior on this and other threads is unfathomable. (I checked the spelling in the dictionary, a recommended procedure.)

 

All I can say to you all is you all have very thin skins, the arguements are clear and very lucid, the responses are diminutive, insulting at best and skewed. The very thought of dissent is not questioned, at least P4 came back with some notable responses, BUT the initial statements were HOGWASH. All things are complex, the Bolton issue and NK for example is typical. The bottom line there is that NK intented to cheat from DAY ONE., did some cheating, WHEN the U.S. (and yes Bolton may have ADVISED leaders in the Bush Administration) refused certain foreign policy statements and directions from this country, plus when the U.S. ceased to provide certain type of FOREING AID (ie MONEY)., (WE would no longer accept nuclear blackmail), the NK precisely maneuvered Ms Albright, stash the stuff and keep threatening, and if you don't get your way, KICK out the UN., no need to continue tricking them anyway, and make NUKES. Face it man she made a BAD BAD deal!!!!! Bolton was not smooth, Bolton attacked what he perceived to be problems. NK was in a position to do this ANYTIME, thanks to Ms Albright and Clinton, that was the deal. So what...we just accept nuclear blackmail forever ??? P.s. Europe and the US facing an even worse problem in Iran (Gona blame Bush for that too I guess)

 

In order to be popular in FRED's house of pankakes you have to critisize anything BUSH does.

and PS for the english parent who thinks teachers who are not PERFECT grammatical experts, teaching other specialized subject:

You need to take your precious one to a private school I guess. Here's a hint....most of the time the kids are not the problem, and neither are the teachers.....or school....figure that one out.

I teach FRENCH, learned English as a second language, my parents were in the diplomatic service in FRANCE. I teach CAD, AutoCAD, and Webb mastering, Powerpoint, Office Suite, etc adn the likes, and I don't expect SPELL and GRAMMAR REVIEW on such a forum. The very expectation you have of teachers, is one of the most MAJOR problems in education today. If I was a Lit. or Eng. teacher, yes perhaps you might have a point, BUT that in this setting is PETTY. I am sure you now think ..here's another typical teacher dumb, our poor kids., teachers need even more and more training.........I knew it them dang teachers...boo hoo hoo,, no child left behind.

I have to take in services of 35 college credit hours every 5 yrs, the techonology is constantly ever changing, I have learned 6 different drafting programs in the past 3 years. In the medical field you have heart surgeons and brain surgeons, each one specializing in the complex field. You may think educational fields are not complex at the high school and college level (yes also teach CAD at college level)., visit the technology centers and areas in a modern High School. My english is fine I write and spell corectly in school, and when it is worthwhile, and important I make sure the language and grammar is right, and this board CERTAINLY DOES NOT meet this importance or significance. Don't know or care what you do but I sure hope you are good at it, considering you expect so much from a $40,000 a year teacher. It is not a contest for me, and I used conversational writing here, not litterature essays. The way I feel is that I suggest you get off your high horse, but feel free to take it anyway you want to.

 

Fretagolf: (and IsrAmeriPrius-see prev post)

Some other Pious non insulting poster just implied that I was a dumb teacher, said her children should have better teachers, and questioned my attitutes

"I beg to differ. That attitude typifies everything that is wrong with our educational system. I will never send my child to a school where teachers are not capable of speaking and writing English correctly, regardless of what subject they may teach. It sets a terrible role model for a teacher to be incapable of properly speaking the language of our country.

PS in Texas ESL and the spanish language is a big concern, I have also tutored ENGLISH to Hispanic Adults....Where does this Californian get off??? (and what planet is he from?) PS I guess IsrAmeriPrius might have to Home School, since his expectations are so HIGH.

Don't talk to me about insults..got all the post and mine from DAY ONE, and I do refer to them. On the insult front and devicive statements you guys are AHEAD.. but I will keep hitting back.

 

Prius4 you need to re-read the Eisenhower's quote and suggest also you check the full context. Of course your right to discent is the noble purpose of this country, that is the freedoom ever guarded. What is not fair and what I critisize here is DOUBLE STANDARDS, and special treatment of one side and not the other.

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionist and rebel men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion"

Here is what maybe Eisenhower was saying)

"May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion"

....I think your side now is close to the latter....I do not feel the efforts of the LIBERAL and EXTREME LEFT
(notice I did not say DEMOCRAT) -{and neither did Karl Rove} are honest dissent, and rather border upon disloyal subversion.

Sorry but that is the way I feel

 

"Me thinks thou dost protest too much."