Drivers Licenses for Illegal Aliens?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 20 2007, 06:27 AM) [snapback]541896[/snapback]</div>

I've got an idea... lets pull out of Iraq, and invade Mexico instead! think about it - it would cost 10% of what Iraq costs, and we'd no longer have all these illegals running around anymore!

How are the illegals sapping the economy?

 

For my safety and for the safety of others, I would like everyone who shares the road with me to have a valid license (i.e. pass a test which shows they know the rules). Many of them will drive a vehicle without a license anyway. For those who want to learn the rules and get a license and make me safer on the road, I am all for it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 20 2007, 04:27 AM) [snapback]541896[/snapback]</div>

"Illegal" merely means that a bunch of rich white men, in the pockets of even richer white men, have decided that poor folks must not be allowed to do something. The law is no more legitimate than the legislature that makes it, and our legislatures are corrupt, so our laws are corrupt and illegitimate. (This is not to let the executive branch off the hook, but that's another topic.)

Blaming people who are politically powerless for our economic problems is a common tactic of the lunatic fringe, including, but not limited to racists and xenophobes.

It is interesting that David claims that our economy is booming and in marvelous shape, and yet he blames "illegal" immigrants for ruining our economy. Then he wants to keep immigrants coming in, but only as second-class workers, who will be forced to work for sub-standard wages, with no benefits and no services, and will be deported when their jobs end.

 

"Illegal" merely means that a bunch of rich white men, in the pockets of even richer white men, have decided that poor folks must not be allowed to do something. The law is no more legitimate than the legislature that makes it, and our legislatures are corrupt, so our laws are corrupt and illegitimate. (This is not to let the executive branch off the hook, but that's another topic.)

Blaming people who are politically powerless for our economic problems is a common tactic of the lunatic fringe, including, but not limited to racists and xenophobes.

It is interesting that David claims that our economy is booming and in marvelous shape, and yet he blames "illegal" immigrants for ruining our economy. Then he wants to keep immigrants coming in, but only as second-class workers, who will be forced to work for sub-standard wages, with no benefits and no services, and will be deported when their jobs end."

I have to take issue with this response because I think it is so far over the top (this is not meant to defend David's views).

In my view, that first paragraph is a combination of race baiting and a suble endorsement of anarchy! I am RARELY offended by anything, but it occurs in a situation like this where a charge of racism is made over an issue like illegal immigration -- even though racism can certainly be a factor for some people.

One of the biggest problems for people who are opposed to illegal immigration by those of Hispanic ethnicity is what seems to be a staunch refusal to assimilate to the American culture and prevailing language - English. There seem to be demands to change government documents, signs, phone call centers, and others to accomodate those who speak Spanish. Those from Asian, African, Middle Eastern Nations have not been provided such accommodations -- in general, they learn the language and conduct themselves in English whenever possible.

The other major problem, as I see it, is this demand from those who have come here illegally have some kind of right to U.S. citizenship. It is not fair to those who are citizens of this country, nor is it fair to those who have sought the propoer channels to immigrate to this nation. That is why this drivers license debate tends to be heated -- may people see drivers licenses as an endorsement of citizenship for illegal aliens, it is the most used form of identification for people -- whether it be for driving, boarding planes, or showing you have some residency here in the U.S. which is legal.

I can't imagine what you would think of the Mexican government or many other governments who are far more harsh to those who do not have the proper documentation to enter their respective countries. If you are in Mexico "illegally" you've just bought yourself 6 months in jail. Is it racist if another country who have "non-whites" in power enforce their immigration laws?

As for the points about our system of government, laws and corruption....NO government is all just and all wise. Governments, including ours, is run by people who have the capacity to do great things, be subject to corruption, or failure. If the charge is our legislatures are corrupt, therefore the laws are unjust and are to be ignored, what you are advocating for is direct democracy or anarchy (no government at all). If you don't like the law, don't throw the whole system under the bus and suggest our system is broken.

I wasn't as taken aback about the response concerning the effect illegal immigrants have on our economy. While illegal immigration is a tremendous drain on social services, hospitals, and law enforcement, it seems clear to me that rightly or wrongly, illegal workers have a positive, if not warped, effect on our overall economy. If we are going to have migrant or seasonal labor in this country they need to be afforded the proper employment protections. It seems clear to me that those who are here illegally can easily be taken advantage of!

Let me apologize in advance if this response seems a bit harsh, however, it is one of the few public policy issues that greatly concerns me and I can tell you I'm not a racist!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 20 2007, 11:00 AM) [snapback]542060[/snapback]</div>

Amen Dr. Berman.

The classic example I've heard so often is that sheetrock installers in Los Angeles used to earn $20+/hr. The trade was primarily composed of black Americans. Today the trade is mostly Mexicans (many illegal) and the wages for all, including those blacks and Mexicans that used to make $20+/hr., is around $12/hr. Illegal workers pull down the wages of even the legal immigrants.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 20 2007, 01:00 PM) [snapback]542060[/snapback]</div>

Believe it or not, i do agree with you, to a certain extent. We either need a national healthcare system with no other health insurance, where every citizen is covered, or the hospitals need to wise up and stop treating those without healthcare or without the ability to pay themselves. Believe it or not, legal citizens do drain us this way, too.

And yet our unemployment numbers aren't horrible... currently 4.6% - it hasn't been this low since 2001! it was around 7% in the early 90's, and slowly dropped until 2000 - how did all the illegal immigrants effect us then? throughout much of our history, unemployment rates have been at or above their current levels, which effectively makes this point of yours worthless.

There's a reason i don't live on a border state This really doesn't mean anything towards the argument at hand, though - that of giving them drivers licenses. Also - how do they not? Do they not pay taxes like the rest of us (this was covered in previous arguments)? Do their taxes not go towards all of this stuff like jails?

You're right about that... but then again, the rest of the world bends over backwards to accommodate English and the American Tourists. We were a country founded on immigration. To me, it only makes sense that we should embrace our heritage and origins from many different countries. Many cities have areas like Little Italy or China Town, where most of the signs are in those respective languages - should those expressions of cultural heritage be outlawed or embraced?

What does speaking english have to do with driving? So long as you understand the road signs and obey traffic laws, i don't see what the problem is. Heck, visitors or immigrants from England are probably going to be more dangerous drivers (at least at first) than Mexicans, and they know the language!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Washington1788 @ Nov 20 2007, 09:48 AM) [snapback]542035[/snapback]</div>

Our national immigration policy is clearly racist. There are more Canadians than Mexicans living undocumented in the U.S., yet there is zero enforcement effort against them. (I approve of the lack of enforcement. I merely want the same courtesy extended to Hispanics who come here to work.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Washington1788 @ Nov 20 2007, 09:48 AM) [snapback]542035[/snapback]</div>

On this point you are mistaken. The typical pattern, among immigrants of all ethnicities, whether they arrive with or without documentation, is that the first generation is too busy working like dogs to have time to learn English. The second generation goes to school here and grows up bilingual. The third generation, growing up in an English-speaking home, never learns the ancestral language. Obviously there are exceptions. But I saw the above pattern consistently when I was working as a translator in a legal aid office.

There are places in the U.S. where Spanish is so predominant that arrivals never have an opportunity to learn English. But there are other ethnicities as well that have enclaves where their ancestral language dominates.

For the record, I advocate that everyone living in the U.S. learn English (including those posters here on PC who cannot write it properly). I also advocate that every native English-speaker learn a foreign language.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Washington1788 @ Nov 20 2007, 09:48 AM) [snapback]542035[/snapback]</div>

How is it unfair? Granting rights to another person does not detract from mine. Granting a path to citizenship for every person who contributes to the society by working can only strengthen rights for everyone.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Washington1788 @ Nov 20 2007, 09:48 AM) [snapback]542035[/snapback]</div>

I lived in Mexico for 4 1/2 years. The Mexican government is so much worse than ours that it would take a whole forum, not just another thread, to discuss the topic. But that does not excuse the corruption, racism, sexism and general intolerance and xenophobia of ours.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Washington1788 @ Nov 20 2007, 09:48 AM) [snapback]542035[/snapback]</div>

Undocumented immigrants are always accused of draining our services. Yet these services are paid for by the taxes of everyone who works, and therefore every worker has a right to them.

Maybe the difference between me and the anti-immigration folks, is that I put the basic human rights of every human being above the me-first appeals to arbitrary laws passed by a bunch of rich white men.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Washington1788 @ Nov 20 2007, 09:48 AM) [snapback]542035[/snapback]</div>

No apology is necessary. This is Fred's House of Pancakes, the place for the expression of views and opinions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Nov 20 2007, 06:03 PM) [snapback]542168[/snapback]</div>

You've said this before in other threads and I've asked for a citation. In fact, about 10 s of googling would show its not even close and gave you some links. Unless you're taking your sample along the Minnesota border, I assume the rest of your argument is equally valid.
(I would have called "bullshit", but some might be offended.)

(edited duplicate post, seems the server stalled)