Driving more using less fuel

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Source: Americans are Driving More, But Using Less Fuel | TheDetroitBureau.com

    This is the effect we've been waiting for and something Prius owners have known for a decade. When you have a fuel efficient vehicle, driving more is no long the financial sting it used to be.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. MPGnutcase

    MPGnutcase Active Member

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    What would happen if everyone had a Prius?
     
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    We would all hum hum hum . . . .
    :rolleyes:
    .
     
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  4. dipper

    dipper Active Member

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    Traffic jam since everyone is driving at or below speed limit? :D
     
  5. inferno

    inferno Senior Member

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    Maybe worth it if everyone gets 60 mpgs ;P I'm on one of my best tanks yet with my 2010, 57.4 mpg accord to the display (probably end up to 54) - I want to edge it closer to 60 mpg lol
     
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Economy of the US would double dip into recession:( The auto recovery has been a big driver of the economy, if everyone switched and bought only imported cars. Millions more would be unemployed, and all the cash to buy all those prii, would starve out other industries as well.

    how about if 20% bought a car as efficient as a prius in the next 5 years, and at least half were built in north america. That would drop oil consumption for cars by 10%. If you can do something similar for trucks it would be a big deal.
     
  7. briank101

    briank101 Member

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    Or would it? Less import of oil, the money saved in gas would be spent stimulating the economy. Toyota would probably set up 10 Prius plants in the US if "everyone" bought a Prius. Actually every US manufacturer would ramp up the production of efficient hybrids or otherwise efficient cars if there was such a change in public mindset. On the whole I think it would be net positive. Demand for oil would go down, this would cause oil prices to drop and would be an economy-wide productivity improvement.

    If half the US population had the mindset of logical Priuschat members, a lot of waste and inefficiency would be eliminated.
     
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  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    If we are talking 20 years, maybe not, if we are talking fast, yes recession. 2.5 million people directly employed would lose their jobs. Then that would force many others to lose their jobs. It would not be pretty if it happened quickly. Eventual the economy would recover, but...

    As long as imports are shirking it doesn't hurt to import the prius, and helps reduce oil. That is quite different than if we chose to destroy an industry.
    Again, if everyone is compelled to buy a prius, then there is no reason for toyota to manufacture in the US. They prefer Japanese jobs over american ones. The business case has long been for toyota to build the prius in north america. I hope they actually do it in gen IV.

    If more bought efficient cars, and there wasn't a arbitrary it must get 50mpg and not have a plug, it would be good for the economy. The cafe standards through 2025 push this. The other element needed is higher fuel costs.

    Oil prices are set globally and the dragon in the room is China. The only way people are going to choose to use less oil is if its more expensive. OPEC will cut supplies if demand decreases. We won't frack our way to lower oil prices, and we won't cut consumption to lower oil prices. Using less oil though does mean that prices have less of an effect on the economy, and strengthens the balance of trade.

    ;) I'll agree there.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    It might get the Mississippi plant to open a Prius line.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  10. eliteconcept

    eliteconcept 700 mile club, top tank mpg 69.5

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    There is still so much more these auto makers could do to improve fuel economy IMO. I believe they are just stair steping society up the ladder for maximum profit. 24.7 average is improving but still I have to believe there are improvements that can be made that aren't being made today. Often I have wondered this, what is the NEED to have a car that has 305 HP (take the 2014 Chevy Impala as an example) ??? Anyone? Just because we can build it doesn't mean we should. Is 0-60 in 6.8 seconds for a family sedan that important? From a quick google search it looks like the most recent gen prius will do 0-60 in about 9 or 10 seconds, which seems more than sufficient. Whats the F-ing hurry? On the same thought, why does your normal family car need the ability to do 90, 95,100, 105, 110 mph? Again just because we can't doesn't mean we should build them. Taken these two things into consideration what types of efficiencies might be able to be leveraged by simply envisioning a more feasible car, should in most circumstances for 95% of people a car with 150-175 HP and the ability to do a maximum speed of 80-85 be more than most people will ever need? We live in a world of just because we can, and just in case I ever need it. Its ridiculous. Its time for the automotive industry to rethink and re imagine the automobile. If they stop over glorifying ridiculous unnecessary features such as 0-60 times, HP and consider that a large majority of people would happily trade HP for reasonable increases in MPG. I'm no engineer, and I know HP and mpg are not a 1 to 1 relationship or trade off but still there has to be benefits that we can gain by toning down our "need" for cars with 285 HP, top speed of 135, and 0-60 in 7.2 seconds, am i crazy or just a dreamer?
     
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  11. dipper

    dipper Active Member

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    Is it really worth it? Did you remember the stunt/protest in 1995 in LA freeway (on a weekend too)? It was a protest to bump the speed limit to 65 mph from 55 mph. Everyone in the protest drove 55 mph on every lane. It became a nightmare traffic jam for miles.
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I am not quite sure family sedan's are important. I myself don't like them. does a camry hybrid really need to get to 60 in just over 7 seconds? No one really needs a camry hybrid. It does get better mileage than the other family sedans. Why not provide the acceleration people seem to want?

    The Sequoia, Tundra, etc those are the guzzlers;)
    I think if you were king of the world you could mandate only hatchbacks, and 0-60 times above 9.5 seconds. Many in the US don't want these cars. I don't think a slow acceleration law really helps fuel economy much anyway.

    The big things that happened during the 90s is cars got bigger and heavier. That made them use more gas than if they had stayed the same size. Bigger and heavier means they need more hp to acceleration, and adding a little more than that did not hurt fuel economy that much. Hybrid adds even more weight, requiring even more hp, but some of the energy is reused, and some of the power comes from the battery. Safety requirements add more to weight.

    Again it doesn't but I really think if the camry hybrid can do 0-60 in less than 7.5 seconds, you shouldn't complain so much about acceleration. What you want is more efficient cars. You could tax bigger cars more. You could tax gasoline more. That would increase efficency. Fixing the EPA tests may give buyers more information. People still buy the v6 camry for more money than the hybrid, for more hp and worse mpg. I think people understand their choices.

    People like better than anemic acceleration. Mandating it will not significantly reduce fuel use. Your dream is part of many peoples nightmares.
     
  13. eliteconcept

    eliteconcept 700 mile club, top tank mpg 69.5

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    I think you come from the school of thought that people know what they want. I believe that people want what is shoved down their throats via marketing. The power of marketing and the inability for many people to formulate their own thoughts and opinions is really quiet remarkable. I think you might be giving people entirely too much credit.

    I think its probably more likely that people buy the non hybrid camry due to lack of knowledge of hybrid systems or concern for the durability and longevity of hybrid systems, rather than the HP.

    Your taking some of my statements too literally, my point was what is the point of a 305 HP family car? I doubt that in this particular use case that soccer mom jill will notice that the car has a whooping 305 instead of a more reasonable 175. Whats the point if most people will never need that much. My point was that we've become a society of we will because we can. It may not significantly reduce fuel consumption but there again, my point is that I don't think that engineers at automotive corporations are doing everything to help increase fuel economy. I'm of the opinion that with the technology we have today we should see much higher than a 24.x average mpg in this country in 2013.
     
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  14. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...if everyone just had one 50 MPG car the other one could be <23 MPG ...I think that is sort of what the proposed CAFE rules might achieve
     
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I am from that school of thought that people make better decisions for themselves than the government most of the time. A productive government might have certain restrictions for health or safety, and provide good information, but otherwise most governments that dictate choices make poor ones in the long run.

    That doesn't mean that cafe standards and fuel taxes are bad. These are about future oil shortages, but when you talk about engine size, or hp, it rarely is productive. When the government has done things for choice, it has often asked for heavier, bigger vehicles (encapsulated in import restrictions in the 70s and 80s, cafe rules, and safety tests) which have hurt fuel economy. These prejudices led to the SUV boom (cafe loophole + government making it sound like they were safer).

    I give individuals better ability to choose what they want than government bureaucrats. Often people praise europe for their governments choice of favoring small diesels, these led to less oil being used, but less healthy air.

    When my car was totalled before I bought the prius, I borrowed a friends twenty year old camry. Its not like these cars have proven longevity beyond the old ford trucks and civics I see on the street. People are worried about batteries in that time period. I am certain those that choose V6 camries have decided the extra power is worth the lesser fuel economy. It is their choice not mine. Now I would like a guzzler tax on those sequoia.
    Compare Side-by-Side
    14 mpg for the sequoia, 25 for the v6 camry, 95 mpge for the tesla S
    These are in order of lowest to highest in both fuel economy and acceleration. In other words efficiency is in the oposite order as acceleration.

    Like I said I don't like family cars. I compromised on the prius. I do like 300hp cars, and bought one in the past (it got about the same fuel economy as a 200hp model). We just disagree on whether you get to chose or car buyers. Cafe standards should raise the price of that sequoia in the mid 2020s when they really kick in.

    I haven't heard the soccar mom demographic in a long time. It normally was derogatory about them buying a big suv. I never heard of one buying the fast car. That seems like more of a cool chick. How about a 300 hp mustang. It gets 23mpg, much worse than a prius, but much better than a sequoia. Then again if you need room for tons of people...


    No but I thought their job was to build efficient desirable cars. If you think they should only build efficient econoboxes, I disagree.
    Agree there. Cars are too big and heavy. Unfortunately all the rules to make engines less powerful will do anything to change that.
     
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  16. eliteconcept

    eliteconcept 700 mile club, top tank mpg 69.5

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    I am not sure where your getting government control out of this debate, ive not said that once. If you have inferred that I am some how stating that gov needs to be in more control there is miscommunication here.
    I am simply stating there is no reasonable need for 305hp cars that can do 130 mph. You clearly disagree and that's fine. For the record the 305hp is based on a family sedan the 2014 Chevy impala very much could be a soccer mom car. I've never heard that as a negative term more as a life style term

    Also I do believe that the mass media controls much of our unthinking majority in this country and they should not be assumed to be capable of making the right decisions. Which is why most Americans have tons of credit card debit and are over weight. Not saying no one makes good decisions but big portion are not making smart decisions.
     
  17. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Yes I did get that out of your response. I don't know how you reduce hp, when people want it, unless you have the government outlaw or put high taxes on it. Some governments have done this (accept for those in the government or military). I apologize. Then I simply disagree and think people should have the choice. What government may have a legitimate interest in regulating is the amount of fuel used. I think we both agree the country should use less fuel.

    Furthermore, I don't really think anyone needs a large car like the impala, or the avalon, they do want these things though. Americans are buying a much smaller percentage of large cars than they were 30 years ago, but the SUV seems to have replaced it. These are less aerodynamic and may get worse fuel economy.

    I believe that toyota's advertising of the prius has probably hurt sales;) I am much less down on individuals than you are. People are overweight and getting fatter,in the US, in mexico, in china. They are exercising less and eating more processed foods. I don't think its the media, but the media does not help. I try not to judge. I know a great deal of athletes, and six incredibly obese, smart, educated people. Many of their friends have tried to get them in better shape, but after a while it just seems pointless to us and insulting to them. A hundred years ago only the wealthy could afford to be obese:( Now most americans can buy a great deal of food, eat it in front of their tv, and drive their 300hp car to a desk job.
     
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    You mean like the Lemmings & Sheep that actually bought into one of my favorite ads?

    [​IMG]

    You gotta love the ad man. He can sell you carcinogens - and make you think you're healthy and cool because of it.

    .
     
  19. walter Lee

    walter Lee Hypermiling Padawan

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    When I was growing up TV, radio, magazines, and newspapers filled an intellectual vacuum
    with advertisements and big money public relations fluffiness.

    Now we have the internet - and public forums like the priuschat can challenge
    what in the past was the intellectual status quo - a good thing in my book.



    If the market for US made vehicles dried up immediatedly - many jobs would be lost immediately.
    Howevery, many if not most vehicles are now made up of parts from all across the globe.

    While currently Prii sold in the USA are made in Japan - Prius are also made in other countries
    beside Japan, e.g. the Prius is made in China for China's local auto market. I don't think
    everyone would ever be compelled to buy a Prius - but if the US market for the Prius was
    as big as the Corolla or the Camry - Toyota would have a good reason to manufacture the
    Prius in the UsA - lower cost. Toyota is a business not a country - Like all corporations,
    Toyota prefers money not jobs. The USA labor cost is very competitive with Japanese labor
    cost, the reason Toyota is building corollas is because it is cost effective to do so.

    Toyota does have a hybrid with a Prius c powerplant in the works - but whether the USA
    will see a hybrid Corolla at the dealership or made in a USA factory - well that's anybody's
    guess.

    Western Oil prices are set by mainly by the speculative oil future contract market.

    The Development Bank of China and the Central Bank of China controls the
    Chinese oil futures contract market via pre-arranged future oil/gas contracts
    (e.g. with Sudan-Sino drilling operations or Russian-Siberian pipeline)
    which bypass global oil future contracts market that is used in the West.
    Like the USA - China subsidizes its oil/gas industry - the average price of
    gasoline in China is very similar to that in the USA - China differs in
    that the price of gas in china is more stable and does not swing up and down
    like the USA. Like the USA, China sees cheap energy cost as a key component
    for economic growth.

    Energy conservation occurs naturally when the cost of energy goes up.
    As energy prices go up - activities with fixed high energy cost may become unsustainable
    while other activities that can be modified to use less energy survive.

    Every year, Researchers, engineers and students build vehicles that get +500 mpg --in the Shell Fuel Efficiency Challenge Marathons - but would anyone buy them?

    More over, would a CEO support making such a vehicle?

    Here in DC - people love the big SUV - we like the high seating positions so we we can see
    the traffic ahead - even if we are stuck in a traffic jam and crawlling around at 10 mph...
    We want the huge cargo space in the rear even though most of the time we are just driving
    alone with one or two bags of groceries in the rear. We like idea that we are safer in a big vehicle
    in case we get rammed by a bigger vehicle on the road... because the other driver is too distracted from texting. Fuel efficiency is not a problem. Given this mind set - Car makers goes for the easy sell and the biggest profit margin they can get...
     
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  20. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    No. Because these aren't anywhere close to safe or street legal cars. And for the most part they aren't practical cars.
    They are engineering projects meant to teach students design skills, cost tradeoffs, part fabrication, etc. Just like an egg drop contest...just more complex.

    Mike
     
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