Drove the 2010 Honda Insight Today

I got my first peek at an Insight this morning at the dealer, but did not test drive the car. The outside looks subjectively to be about the same size as the Prius, while the interior feels quite a bit smaller. The dashboard feels even longer than the Prius; I think I would have to readjust to know where the front of the car is. Hooray for adjustable steering wheel and seat! While true that synthetics and plastics are used for upholstery and paneling, they appear to be reasonable quality.

Looking in the engine compartment, it seems as though the oil filter is not accessible until a wind cover is removed.

I'll not be popular with this opinion, but I walked away thinking this car should be stripped of it's IMA, and sold instead as a nice economical $15K US vehicle. With appropriate gearing I don't think it will get fuel economy much worse than this hybrid design, although at the expense of slower acceleration.

 

Yeah but that'll position it between the fit and the civic. I do agree that with proper gearing, it can probably get 35+ mpg. The civic is already 33 and the fit is around 36.

 

Agreed.

In fact, that is the ultimate dream setup for many hypermilers since the poor acceleration resulting from ICE only propulsion is plenty enough for them. 0-60 in 15-16 seconds (or more) is already too fast for people bent on getting the highest FE.

One thing to note though: Its also one of those things that would have been done IF it is was easy.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

MSantos and Dani -- thanks for not roasting me

Should be obvious to all that I am not an engineer, so what I am going to say should be taken with a grain of salt: For myself, and I suspect for the majority of people who strive for good fuel economy, the functional aspects of a hybrid that make the most difference in decreasing order are:

• Engine off, no spin coasting
• Engine off at stop
• Regen

Maximizing regen requires high power components, and I suspect is the least benefit/cost improvement -- at least for drivers who coast to red lights. Poor gliding is I think the Insight's weakness.

I don't know if Honda can fix it with an IMA setup (assuming I am right), but I have my fingers crossed for them.

 

Actually gliding an IMA Gen4 and newer is pretty easy and a relatively productive thing to do in terms of FE.
And, when done right it can travel with very little parasitic drag and it is almost as good as a FAS (gliding in neutral with the ICE forcefully off). On the Prius parasitic drag is noticeable too - especially on longer glides. In fact gliding is further enhanced by the easy application of electric only assist - very similar to the Prius warp stealth.

Anyway, the IMA gas engines are especially made to operate in a hybrid power train arrangement. Because of this, almost no parts or production processes are shared with the other non-hybrid engine lines. In other words, the cost of the low friction ICE engineering and multi-stage ICE operation was only justifiable if blended in with the secondary power source.

Regen rate is determined by the IMA BCM (Battery Pack condition monitor), not the MGset. In fact, the BCM often discards a great deal more regen than what it generates.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

That's interesting. Is this for HCH-II? That would indicate room for improvement in the HV pack cooling or Sanyo packs are not that good in quick charging.

Do you know how many Amps the pack can take? For the Prius, max is 100 Amp.

 

MSantos, can you quantitate in kW the engine+drivetrain drag at 40 mph coast in an Insight II ?

I know Wayne Gerdes and other hypermiling masters use FAS to great effect, but that is not a technique I am willing to utilize.

 

Honda uses Sanyo and Panasonic packs. The HCH-II is mostly equipped with Panasonic assemblies. Previous hybrid models used mostly Sanyo.

The absolute maximum under normal conditions (6 bars of regen) is roughly 60A but once again this is determined by the BCM. A portion of the MGSet capacity is used by other downstream systems when the pack is in SoC deficit or simply "discarded" (full pack or S5 fault).

As far as I can tell the cells on the Insight II are Panasonic sourced too.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

Not yet. But my review of the test unit currently in my possession will be posted soon with comparative info and many other details.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

I look forward to reading it. Where are you posting the review ?

 

HCH II has smaller cylinder cells from Sanyo. The charge and discharge by the BCM is probably limited by:

- Ability to cool them down
- Each cell is smaller in capacity than Prius cells (5.75 Ah vs. 6.5 Ah)

I did not realize how much the prismatic cells are superior to the cylinder cells until we have the hard numbers. 60A vs. 100A.

We can calculate the difference how much power 2010 Insight and 2009 Prius can take (max).

2010 Insight: 60A x 100.8V = 6.1 kW
2009 Prius: 100A x 201.6V = 20.2 kW

Wow, that's 3.3 times more energy Prius regen brake can absorb!

According to this source, Insight II use cylinder cells from Sanyo as well. Panasonic (PEVE) stopped making cylinder cells two generations ago. The last one that used was in 2000 Japanese Prius. 2001 Prius introduced in the US had prismatic cells.

 

Hell, I'd be getting another demo only car lickety split so I could sell it for $3K over MSRP and slip an extra few thou in the old sky rocket. Makes sense to me anyway.

By the way, "sky rocket" is rhyming slang for pocket.

 

For the record: My two HCH-II's not only have "Panasonic" printed on the pack, but the majority of technical references also state that.

The Insight is expected to receive a measurably lower charge rate than the HCH-II. I am not sure how much lower but it has been deemed at less than 50A. Again, this is something that will become clearer a bit later when technical literature becomes more widely available.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

You are right. I confirmed it straight from PEVE site. However, that was back in 2001 (HCH I). I did not know that HCH II continue to use it after 12 years since it's introduction.

Year 2001
Dec Mass production launch for CIVIC Hybrid battery
Panasonic EV Energy Co., Ltd. develops and launches Cylindrical Ni-MH battery pack system for “Honda CIVIC Hybrid”.

Wow, half the volt and half the amp. The Insight would capture 1/4 the rate of what a Prius can.

 

As far as I know, and I have been able to verify this from a rather detailed perspective, the PTC equipped C/D cylindrical cells have undergone measurable manufacturing and yield improvements in their own way.
Nothing is more evident of this than the newer replacement packs being installed on older Insights and HCH-1's. The improvements often require the BCM and/or its software to be replaced due to the improved/changing characteristics on the newer packs.

I think we have to be careful when comparing types of charge ratings in an ad-hoc manner. For instance, from what I recall the 100A charge capacity on the Prius-II is a theoretical maximum not an effective/governed maximum. Anyone, please correct me if you can confirm this.
However, the 60A figure I mentioned is a governed maximum and this is the result of learned experiences in terms of profiling the pack charge management and cooling under various scenarios. Unlike HSD, IMA can be quite punishing on a battery pack and Honda has had a pretty steep leaning curve on this one and a bruised history to show.
It also does not help that is has to contend with whatever is leftover from the cherry picked yields at Panasonic and whatever it can get from Sanyo when Ford is not snagging it.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

The Iconic Prius' HV pack is rated at 21kW (28hp). Since the pack has 201.6 volts, it should handle 104 Amps.

The discharge rate is 34hp because total output is 110hp minus 76hp ICE equal 34hp from the HV pack.