E-85 Ethanol

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by littleprius, May 5, 2011.

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  1. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    I would think if a guy ran a mix of e85 & gasoline, then the computer would be happy with a factory program. Is e85 quite a bit lower cost over there compared to gasoline? It is priced about 20% lower than gasoline here, which doesn't make much sense, as it uses so much alcohol with little gas. Criminal sellers I suspect keeping prices way higher than what it really could sell for.

    Mike
     
  2. petrik

    petrik New Member

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    Yes, been running an odd tank of e85 in between normal fuel tanks without problems.
     
  3. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    How much a gallon or litre is it over there?

    Mike
     
  4. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Moderator
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    Section 6-1 of the 2010 Owner's manual suggests "gasahol" of no more than 10% Ethanol. Methanol should not be used.

    Use of other "gasahols" may cause fuel system damage or poor vehicle performance.

    According to Toyota's "Flex Fuel" FAQ (Toyota Flex Fuel Vehicle FAQ) Their FFV's are designed for higher flow injectors, updated ECU, and a higher capacity fuel pump. They also use "Ethanol Resistent" gaskets and seals. This is all in the name of durability and reliability over time.

    I suspect if you can get your Prius to run on E85 w/o throwing a lean-code (on an un-modified Prius), then you'd be looking at the potential of longer-term fuel-system damage to specific gaskets if they're not "Ethanol Resistent".

    Unless you've modified your vehicle to run on E-85, I'd suggest staying away from it as the energy content vs. cost just isn't there for the Prius. Some sources suggest a 10mpg or 20% drop in economy. Unless the fuel is more than 20% cheaper (ignoring long-term consequences), the financial savings are a myth.
     
  5. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    When some fuel system component fails be sure to tell us the repair cost :_>
     
  6. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The other One Percenter.....

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    Yeah...right.
    Go ahead. I mean after all.....those Toyota engineers aren't nearly as smart as you are....right?

    OK....maybe that sounds a little harsh...but why in the world would somebody hazard a $25,000 vehicle to save 10 bucks in gas???? I've heard people in this very forum opine that E10 is killing cars faster than cigarettes---and now I hear somebody saying that E85 (diluted by a half tank of E10) is no sweat.....:confused:

    Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot????
     
  7. petrik

    petrik New Member

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    Close to 1.7€/ litre for 95E10. European union is pushing for having 95E15 or even 95E20 in the next few years. This is an effort to make the society less dependent on oil. E85 costs around 30% less but its about the same cost when taking in the extra consumption.

    You guys can try to make a point about users manua, but similarly there is a note to stay away from HV voltage systems ;-), or dont replace trims without EU markings on those. Its illegal to install LED lights. Besides Electrical only vehicles are not practical due to harsh winters in norther europe.

    My very strong hobby is advanced engine tuning - so for me E85 is not about saving costs, using E85 is about experimenting with fuels that generate less emissions and more power. That way we can show the way to the industry to start moving.


    I have a self built e-bike for communing the 10mile trip weather permitting, a drag racing and top speed motorbike (9.7s or 330km/h)that has been tuned to run e85 and experiment on my prius with e85. So Please now tell me what can be done and what you have done for less emissions? Not really interested in hearing what can not be done as I am used to push the envelope regardles of doubts that are just fuel for bigger aspiration to succeed.
     
  8. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    Damn, that's $9.22 a gallon US money for your gas :eek: Today our 87 octane gas is $3.79 a gallon. I can see why you would want to use a lower cost fuel.

    There have been hundreds of guys with the Saturn Ion Redline & Chevy Cobalt SSsc that are running e85 today. Zero problems with anything. The software is changed along with the injectors to flow more fuel, but there are zero problems with the alcohol in the factory fuel pumps, lines, everything.

    Like you say, someone has to try it or nobody will learn anything. Many people will say no you can't use that e85, but do they have experience running it in a car? It is just like those people that say a Prius battery will fail in a few years. Do they own a Prius? No they do not. I only believe people that have experience, not those that think they know something :rolleyes:

    Mike:)
     
  9. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    Perhaps the difference is that the owners manual does not predict that the battery will fail in a few years. In fact, Toyota never claims that. Toyota does, however warn me not to use E85 in my manual.
     
  10. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi Petrik,

    I seem to remember the University of Minnesota did a study on E85, but it was on a 1st Gen Prius. Minnesota is the state just west of Lake Superior (the farthest west Great Lake). They grow allot of corn there, and many people there talk with a distinctive swedish accent. The finnish imigrants ended up mostly in Upper Michigan (just south of Lake Superior, commonly called the UP). Our next door neighbors in the UP were finnish - Erkila was their name.

    If you are very accomplished at ECU reverse engineering, look into what can be done with the variable valve timing (with inteligence) in the Prius, and see if you can up the compression ratio sufficienctly to take advantage of the higher octane of the E-85. This might make the project less EU's/mile as well. I believe some swedish car hobbyiest with old Volvo 760 Turbo's have done just that.

    E-85 here is made from Corn. And you might know that there is some issues regarding using it to fuel land-yachts, so some car companies and their unions can maintain an unrealistic life-style, at the expense of serious social impact in southern mexico. Hopefully, we are on the road to fixing that. At least the neccessity by the car companies to be required to build large SUV's to stay in buisness has probably been corrected.
     
  11. petrik

    petrik New Member

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    Could not care less about user manual warnings section as it also says HV hazard and I have installed an additional plug for Enginer system which I needed to take away due to 6 out of 16 batteries getting damaged due to the very low temperatures and not being able to charge those for a couple of months. Now I am looking forward to see better battery technology that lasts longer and can withstand some decent frost. Its adviced not to add a tow hook, but those are sold and used regularly. I have installed Coastal tech lockpick to be able to more freely use my mobile when riding, that was originally considered not to be safe by Toyota too.

    There is quite a lot of anti E85 FUD on this board, so lets try to be constructive around the topic.

    E85 is just an alternative fuel with less emissions and more power. This very old study is in line with our own later experiments with E85 conversions of boosted and all motor applications.
    http://www.greenenergynetwork.com/media/studies/prius-e85.PDF

    There are unknown areas - yes, bladder longvity in alcohol being one - personally I doubt that there is issue with E85, but there is also hope for getting more accurate information about rubber/plastic parts and alcohol: European Automotive Association just commissed a new study of 95E10 being used in cars which declared incompatible with the fuel, so I expect this study to reveal facts around this topic to avoid guessingwork.

    I already have purchased GM alcohol content sensor and Zeitronix GM sensor to analogue voltage converter. Moving forward to test the MAF sensor to adjust offset should be fairly easy. If I want to play on the safe side and not to trust with the fuel trim (based on oxygen sensor) the fuel alcohol content signal from Zeitronis could be used to adjust MAF sensor offset. Not a biggie - just lack of time to start to experiment with this. Lets see how things develop timewise.
     
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  12. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    ...and less energy.
     
  13. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    That (where I live) costs more than E10 per mile, and is specifically pointed out by Toyota as warranty ending.

    I would cheerfully be using E85 if both of those were not true.

    Note that I use E10 because it IS cheaper than E0 per mile where I live, and Toyota is good with it up to E15, so I am not opposed to ethanol.

    So while advocating Fear, I am not advocating any Uncertainty or Doubt.
     
  14. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Moderator
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    This is becoming less about the Prius and more about the fuel itself. Closed.
     
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