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E85

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by Cheap!, Jul 9, 2006.

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  1. jburns

    jburns Senior Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Three60guy @ Jul 10 2006, 12:21 AM) [snapback]283647[/snapback]</div>
    Brazil does not use corn to make ethanol. They use sugar cane. Whole different set of variables including it is the cheapest method. By the way Brazil exports ethanol and would love to have the US as a market. Why aren't they? The US imposes a 54 cents a gallon tariff. The US corn producers strongly oppose any reduction because it would lower the price of corn.

    The ACGA’s Larry Mitchell said removing the tariff would lower corn prices at least 6 cents per bushel for every 1 billion gallons of ethanol imported into the United States. That works out to about $666 million in lost income for U.S. farmers.

    Some background:

    * Since 1980, the US has imposed a $0.54 per gallon tariff on imported ethanol—the only exception to that being ethanol from CBI (Caribbean Basin Initiative) nations, and El Salvador, the portal through which Cargill would bring the Brazilian ethanol, being part of that group.
    * The CBI allows up to 7% of the previous year’s US fuel grade ethanol production to be exempt from that import duty. Based on last year’s production of 2.81 billion gallons, that would allow 196 million gallons into the country via CBI nations tariff-free.
    * Brazil is the leading world producer of ethanol (3.6 billion gallons of ethanol in 2003, although the US is closing fast). Brazilian ethanol is produced from sugar cane feedstock at a cost of about $0.50 per gallon to produce.
    * Corn-based ethanol in the US costs between $1.00 to $1.25 per gallon to produce, depending up the size of the plant and the process used.
     
    #41 jburns, Jul 11, 2006
  2. finman

    finman Senior Member

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    Is water usage accounted for in that cost? Is the petro-derived fertilizer? The petro to fuel the machinery to plant/maintain/harvest/transport the feedstock? The electricity cost to mfg./refine the ethanol? Until yes is the answer to ALL the energy inputs, ethanol is subsidized crop burning.

    Good for farmers, bad overall for our energy policy...unless , of course you're in with Big Oil, having to use so much fossil fuel to 'save' gasoline...win-win for them.

    Cheers,

    Curt.
     
    #42 finman, Jul 11, 2006
  3. naterprius

    naterprius Senior Member

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    DON'T USE AVGAS! (aviation gasoline). It's usually plain old LEADED gasoline!

    Nate
     
    #43 naterprius, Jul 11, 2006
  4. wilco

    wilco New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mehrenst @ Jul 11 2006, 12:45 PM) [snapback]284553[/snapback]</div>
    Aviation gas contains tetra-ethyl lead which is not good for your catalytic converter. 100LL contains more lead than 80/87 (ironically, because the "LL" stands for low lead!).

    I'd just drive it to burn the E85 off.
     
    #44 wilco, Jul 11, 2006
  5. tumbleweed

    tumbleweed Senior Member

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    Keep up the good work Cheap!, we need people to do these little tests for us.
     
    #45 tumbleweed, Jul 11, 2006
  6. wilco

    wilco New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 11 2006, 01:30 PM) [snapback]284584[/snapback]</div>
    Beat me to the punch! I got hungry mid-post and got up to make a PBJ... mmmm peanut (in Homer Simpson voice)
     
    #46 wilco, Jul 11, 2006
  7. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    You can help the situation by diluting the E85 as quickly as possible: add ordinary gasoline as frequently as you feel like it (that is, don't wait until you would normally before re-fuelling).
     
    #47 richard schumacher, Jul 11, 2006
  8. Cheap!

    Cheap! New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jul 11 2006, 12:25 AM) [snapback]284324[/snapback]</div>
    Normally I get 51mpg ave. for the whole tank.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 11 2006, 12:49 PM) [snapback]284502[/snapback]</div>
    What is CAN compatible, or even what is CAN?

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RichBoy @ Jul 11 2006, 02:20 PM) [snapback]284542[/snapback]</div>
    I got E85 because I wanted to help farmers rather then you know who. It was not that I was cheap this time. Yes I did screw up bad. Thanks for your comments.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tumbleweed @ Jul 11 2006, 03:41 PM) [snapback]284592[/snapback]</div>
    Yeah, let me be the guinea pig. I really did think the Prius was a flex fuel vehicle.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ Jul 11 2006, 05:10 PM) [snapback]284644[/snapback]</div>
    It is ok so far. I thought about the trade off of emptying half the gas and then putting in six gallons of 10 ethanol giving the tank about a 45% ethanol value, but then I would have to drive several hundred more miles to get it half way full again just to bring it down to 25%, and so on. So I went for it and did a road trip to get it all out of my system.

    I drove 350 miles on that tank averaging about 31 mpg. I know I was very close to empty because the last pip had been flashing for some time. At lunch today I filled up at shell 11.295 gallons of the 10% stuff. I drove five miles back from the station to work. The C. E. L. was still on, and I have not seen my MPG's go back up yet, but I think that is because there is fuel still in the line. I’ll post here when I find out more.

    P.S. To be honest, I could have gotten 45 MPG or above, but I was trying to burn fuel. I drove around speeding with my cruse control set for 70 mph, windows open, lights on, AC blasting without recirculation.
     
    #48 Cheap!, Jul 11, 2006
  9. TheForce

    TheForce Stop War! Lets Rave! Make Love!

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    Did you perposly get 30mpg to drain the tank or did you drive normally?

    [edit]
    Never mind. I should have keep reading. :rolleyes:
     
    #49 TheForce, Jul 11, 2006
  10. Cheap!

    Cheap! New Member

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    Update on the E85 problem.

    On my way home last night the check engine light went out on it's own.


    My mpg indicated on the MSD was up to 47 mpg. This maybe low because I still had some E85 in the fuel line. I hope to see it increase as I have just gone over 6000 miles. In my first few tanks the mpg's went from 47 down to about 42 by the fourth. Working with P&G the mpg's stayed around 48 to 49 mpg. Once I got my hub caps, I saw 51 mpg. Then I did see my mpg's go up after about 5200 miles I was getting 51 mpg at freeway speeds of 60 mph, and the AC on all the time, but then the E85 happened.

    I think I will be able to put this behind me with out any damage to my baby. I’ll probably post after this tank is done or if I notice any changes to the handling or performance.

    I do wish I could use E85. For the short term I believe being off of foreign oil would far outweigh the lower mpg’s of E85. Maybe the 2007 or 2008 Prius will do that trick.
     
    #50 Cheap!, Jul 12, 2006
  11. daronspicher

    daronspicher Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mikepaul @ Jul 10 2006, 09:59 AM) [snapback]283814[/snapback]</div>
    Yes, this is Toyota's fault that this guy filled it with E85...

    If I pour a gallon of latex paint in my gas tank, is that also Toyota's fault? My car has no sticker that says.. "No Laytex paint ALLOWED!!!!"

    People, please take responsibility for yourselves...
     
    #51 daronspicher, Jul 12, 2006
  12. Tempus

    Tempus Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 12 2006, 11:07 AM) [snapback]284946[/snapback]</div>
    Latex Paint, that's silly. It would have to be Oil Based paint.
     
    #52 Tempus, Jul 12, 2006
  13. daronspicher

    daronspicher Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ Jul 12 2006, 10:15 AM) [snapback]284952[/snapback]</div>
    My car has a sticker that says.. "No Oil Based Paint ALLOWED!!!!", that's why I went for Laytex paint... :D

    How about if I fill up with diesel? and what if I put on tires designed for a go-cart.... I'm in the mood to blame my problems with my car on Toyota... There is no sticker on the fender that says... "No Go-Cart Tires ALLOWED!!!!"

    No wonder cars and things in America cost so much. Too many people saying "You should then blame toyota for your e85 problem"
     
    #53 daronspicher, Jul 12, 2006
  14. Cheap!

    Cheap! New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 12 2006, 10:26 AM) [snapback]284964[/snapback]</div>
    Again!

    I read the 2006 Owner's Manual and page 319 states:

    CLEANER BURNING GASOLINE

    Cleaner burning gasoline, including re-
    formulated gasoline that contains oxy-
    genates such as ethanol or MTBE is
    available in many areas.

    Toyota recommends the use of cleaner
    burning gasoline and appropriately blended
    reformulated gasoline.     These types of gas-
    oline provide excellent vehicle perfor-
    mance    , reduce vehicle emissions, and im-
    prove air quality.

    They should have said:


    CLEANER BURNING GASOLINE

    Cleaner burning gasoline, including re-
    formulated gasoline that contains oxy-
    genates such as ethanol or MTBE is
    available in many areas.

    Toyota [does not recommend] the use of cleaner
    burning gasoline and appropriately blended
    reformulated gasoline. [Even thought ]These types of gas-
    oline provide excellent vehicle perfor-
    mance, reduce vehicle emissions, and im-
    prove air quality[, DONT USE THEM.]

    However they did not so I went with the E85
     
    #54 Cheap!, Jul 12, 2006
  15. jbreynolds

    jbreynolds Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Jul 12 2006, 10:32 AM) [snapback]284966[/snapback]</div>
    This clearly refers to E10, not E85. E85 could not be described as "gasoline that contains ... ethanol", since it contains far more ethanol than gasoline.
     
    #55 jbreynolds, Jul 12, 2006
  16. Cheap!

    Cheap! New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jbreynolds @ Jul 12 2006, 10:40 AM) [snapback]284972[/snapback]</div>
    Would that mean that something is still edible because it contains 99 % edible food and only 1 percent poison, or would you classify that as poison?

    This does not clearly reffer to E10, or E85.
     
    #56 Cheap!, Jul 12, 2006
  17. jbreynolds

    jbreynolds Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Jul 12 2006, 10:53 AM) [snapback]284983[/snapback]</div>
    Bad analogy. If something has poison in it, it is by definition inedible.

    Your reading of the language in the manual is tantamount to classifying a substance that is 85% poison and 15% food as "food". This is why no one else on this board appears to made the same irrational misinterpretation of it that you have.
     
    #57 jbreynolds, Jul 12, 2006
  18. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    Your heart is in the right place, but E85 *as it is now produced in the US* does very little if anything to reduce petroleum imports. US agribusiness (1) uses petroleum-derived fuels and fertilizers to grow the corn used in the US to make ethanol. US E85 today is a subsidy for US agribusiness. If you don't like this, start by pressing Congress to eliminate the $0.54 per gallon import duty on ethanol.

    (1) Notice that I write "agribusiness" and not "farmers". The great majority of US corn is grown by Conagra, ADM, and a few other corporations.
     
    #58 richard schumacher, Jul 12, 2006
  19. Cheap!

    Cheap! New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jbreynolds @ Jul 12 2006, 11:06 AM) [snapback]284991[/snapback]</div>
    Good analogy.
    Vitamin A overdose (Toxicity)
    The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for vitamin A, for a 25-year old male, is 3,000 micrograms/day, or about 10,000 IU.

    Too much vitamin A can be harmful or fatal, resulting in what is known as hypervitaminosis

    Yes Irrational

    Like dumping on a guy who make a mistake and posted his mistake to help others.

    Irrational.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ Jul 12 2006, 11:14 AM) [snapback]285000[/snapback]</div>
    Thanks, I did not know that about E85. I am starting to think that we need to do more of what Darelldd is doing and geting more power from our roofs.
     
    #59 Cheap!, Jul 12, 2006
  20. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
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    Cheap!, I'm glad that tank is behind you.

    And unlike some, I'm going to thank and congratulate you for posting your error and giving us very intricately detailed updates and results. While there are those few without sins who rapidly cast stones, I for one, will admit that for every single flub-up I mention on this forum there are at least three that I keep to myself. The ones I do post - like you - I do for the sakes of everyone else so they can take something away from the experience.

    About the manual: I think Toyota wrote the manual before the U.S. was all gun-ho about E85 and therefore they don't elude to it. I have some level of suspicion that the maual might be further ambiguous because it wasn't originally written in English, but that's another story.

    So if we learned a lesson with this, it's that if you mess up, think real hard before you mention it here. Though most of the well-hearted members will work to help you through it, some will use your mistake as an excuse to make themselves feel superoir and flawless.
    I don't create the examples, I just point them out. Nor do I have to name names since they are self-documenting.
     
    #60 TonyPSchaefer, Jul 12, 2006
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