Edmunds Long-term Prius c story

Wow I just realized this thread was about a Prius C! Sorry about the derailment.

 

Look I like neat technology just like the next guy, I've wanted to buy a Honda Civic Natural gas car for years, now Honda is giving them away and throwing in a 3K fuel card and I still can't make practical sense out of purchasing one. Your car fit your exacting lifestyle and I think that's great, the simple fact remains that Johnny Q Public given the two options isn't going to buy the electric version of the car that lists for 50K. The only reason they are discounted is nobody wants them at that price. It's the same reason why Plug-in Prius's have huge mark downs along the East coast and nothing on the West coast. East coast doesn't want them!

100 miles or 200 miles, doesn't matter, it's not enough. Come on kids let's load up in the Rav 4 let's make a three day trip out to San Francisco. Seriously why don't we wind the clocks back to 1915. Damn crank broke my wrist when I tried to fire up the Model T, really...............

 

^^^
Sure, they were NOT selling at $50K. That price was nuts. It seems they found the sweet spot w/the incentives.

For trips where the range isn't enough, if there are no suitable charging locations, take an ICEV. I really wish some Leafers (there are a few here) would chime in. The other 97+% of the time, the Rav4 EV is enough, for many folks.

The 103 mile figure is from the average of range from charging in standard mode and extended (100%). As for not enough, it was enough for this guy w/a Leaf... barely though: 11 Months, 36,000 Miles In A Nissan Leaf Electric Car? No Problem. You can see where he's at My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - Two Years, 76,000 miles, 12 bars and 232 GID now.

 

First off the cars should get no state or federal incentives. The Tesla is a perfect example of a manufacturer that can produce a product that has a market and can stand on it's own. The Model S will and can sustain itself without the Federal or State incentives.
Secondly, and you just said it yourself, take an internal combustion engine vehicle when you go on a trip. I think there's nothing more to say. The average American is struggling to buy a car to begin with, they don't care about tax incentives set up for the rich. I'm using the word "rich" because a guy who's total family income is 50 k a year thinks a guy making 100k/yr is rich. That guy is never ever ever going to even think about an electric version of the Rav. He's going to be happy with the best deal he can swing on a gas Rav.
I'm sorry but all this cool tech stuff is just that, it's toys for those who can afford them.
If an SUV can't be an all around multipurpose family car, what good is it to the majority of the population.
The Model S is a rich mans toy, sure it's outselling MB, Audi, BMW, etc. because it's in Vogue. Guys with cash have another nice sedan to cruze on the weekends. It has found it's nice market, the Rav on the other hand has virtually no market. It's MSRP is the same as the bottom end Model S. It's a tough market to be playing in.

 

My good buddy is one of the writers/testers at Edmunds. He absolutely HATES the C. Abhors it. He loves and raved about the Avalon hybrid recently though.

 

Sounds like your friend enjoys the comforts of a sedan over a modded out Yaris.

 

Sigh... so much misinformation. The purpose of incentives is to encourage people to buy cars w/certain technologies so that they're developed in the first place and their costs can come down (by having enough volume) and eventually become more mainstream.

Tesla finally turned its 1st profit (barely), after 10 years in business, after racking up over $1 billion in losses, so far. Time will tell whether they can sustain themselves. The cars they sell are eligible for state and Federal incentives and they received a large govt loan.

As for average family, how many average families have multiple vehicles? For those that do (which I'd say is most of the population), there's room for an EV as one of them, alongside their ICEV(s).

You're also wrong on the MSRP of the Model S. The 40 kwh version was dropped before it shipped. If you order one now, the cheapest choice is the $70K 60 kwh model (which doesn't even come w/nav, it's a $3750 option). $20K delta is not $0. And, there's no $10K incentive, so the delta is $30K. And, there's no 0% financing on a Model S. Rav4 EV comes standard w/nav as well.

I will admit the Rav4 EV is a tough sell as I've seen 0 advertising anywhere for it other than on Engadget for a few weeks. And, it's a lot more expensive upfront than the ICE version and now unfortunately is a generation behind the most current.

However, it is much cheaper to "fuel" than the ICE versions, even if you up the per kwh values to say 20 cents/kwh. See Compare Side-by-Side. The default gas prices values are too low as well (for CA).

 

First, poor exposure; this What Good is a Rav4EV? discussion is buried in a thread originally about the Prius c, and then the unending Prius/TDI circular kerfuffle, and now the Rav4EV, and even the uber-ecar Type S. That's some serious topic drift. If you really want owner/user comments, someone needs to start a new stand-alone Rav4EV or perhaps Leaf titled thread.

Second, even when you stumble upon the discussion, there appears to little to no reason to comment. Canfab has already made it perfectly clear that an EV of any cost, any range does/will not fit his needs/desires -- they are different -- now or in the foreseeable future... and in his opinion that apparently goes for everyone he knows and even the country as whole.

Why would our Leafers bother? (At one point, there were at least five, IIRC)

'Fools rush in -- No, let's make that, procede apprehensively -- where angels fear to tread'.
In the absence of any Leafers, I'll take a stab at explaining why an EV works in our
particular case and may be an example for other potential EV owners.
This is going to be longish, but you asked for it, and I can then be unapologetic.

For the last year, our daily vehicle of choice is a THINK CIty EV, It has roughly the same daily range as the GenI Leaf; all else being equal, up to 80 miles in mild weather, ~65 miles when heavy heat or air conditioning is called for.

It has to be said up front that whatever its range or cost, an EV is currently a niche vehicle. However, that does not mean it can't meet or even exceed the needs of a meaningful minority of today's drivers. IMHO, the biggest detriment to a broader acceptance of EV's is the unthinking mindset of the typical buyer/driver. For an EV to be a practical daily driver you have to be brutally honest about what you need in your specific individual case before you buy, and how you will use the car the next day every night when you charge.

To be more specific, you have to do a hard-nosed evaluation of what your typical daily range requirements are day-in, day-out, winter and summer before you buy any EV. Nobody else can tell you what this number is. Whether your daily needs can be met by any EV is primarily a function of a choice that you've already made and are probably deeply invested in, that is where you have chosen to live… and your home loan is probably 'underwater' and you can't relocate until the real estate market improves a great deal.

An 80 mile top range EV works for us, that is it is a hand-in-glove fit for three reasons, and I will admit while I want to believe that this happy condition is the result of good planning on my part, there is more than a little plain old good luck involved.
* Firstly, 5 years ago we downsized our house and moved right in close to the city. Now almost everything we need on a routine basis is within a 15 mile radius; jobs, downtown entertainment, suburban mall shopping, doctor, dentist, hospitals, libraries, restaurants, parks, fireworks at the harbor, professional sports, etc. (If I've missed anything important I'm confident it's within our range circle.)

* Secondly, about a year ago The THINK City came on the local market at seriously reduced price. (The car is hand built in Elkhart IN, from parts made in Finland, by a global company now based in Munich, and majority owned by a Russian!) Originally priced at something like $36K, the car was being offered at $22.5K before a tax rebate of up to $7500 and no state sales tax, about $1300. Admittedly a risky deal as both the car manufacturer and HV battery maker, EnerDel, were undergoing reorganization/bankruptcy. (Both concerns are still in business however and actively involved with the community of now some 400 Think drivers around the country, when/should we need them.)

* Thirdly, we can charge the car in our home's back yard. This might not have been be the case if we had moved into a condo, apartment or town house closer in. For our daily range needs we can get by with 120V charging, about 6% SOC per hour charge time. for us typically 4-6 hr. overnight charging needed daily to get back to 80% SOC. But we can charge up to 100% if tomorrow we need more range, typically for the weekend errand runs or drive-abouts on Sunday -- this zippy little car is so much fun to drive, that I sometimes think of it as a two seat, 4-wheel, full coverage motorcycle with room for 12 or more shopping bags. Ghosting along at above the PSL on country rural roads in the county is a real blast… to hell with the eMPG -- up to ~100 when driven sedately.

This distinctive looking, very basic all-electric wonder works for because of the above lucky conditions and the fact that as there are only two of us, we can generally anticipate and plan our next day range requirements and stay within the 20-80% SOC range that is recommended for long term HV battery capacity/range retention.

The one exception to being able to stay within the car's imposed range limits is a trip to the airport, on the far other side of the city and further on for ~10 miles, 30 miles+ one way. It would be a white-knuckle round trip on a single charge from home. But there are L2 chargers available there and I have the required charge card should I ever attempt it… Which I doubt I will. I wouldn't leave the car there for any extended periods or if going to pick-up/drop-off out of town visitors, would probably need more seats/volume.

Which brings me to trips of longer than 50 miles total. For them we have our 'big car,' an '08 Prius with ~76K miles on the clock. Typically these trips are rambles up and down the East Coast to visit family in Maine and Florida. Granted, these occur only once a year. But the Prius is paid for and the only accruing expense is insurance and oil changes. Our insurance is really low due our 45 year accident free history with USAA and the car no longer being used for daily commuting. For oil changes, I'll be changing oil at least once a year -- after the trip to Florida, ~2000 mi. -- we should see ~5000 mi annual total. As it is now, the Prius gets used maybe once a week, and spends one night a week on a battery minder to keep the weak sister, achilles heal 12V battery up to snuff.

Lastly, in the cases of both the Prius and the THINK, as constantly depreciating assets, they like any car don't make us any money. Its about lower $$ outlays over the long haul, and eventually on a fixed budget. But in my thinking even that is not enough justification for the forward looking THINK. Enter altruism. An important reason to drive the THINK is my two children. They are both in their 30's and don't (yet) subscribe to meaningful self-imposed minimum resource use. But I believe that one legacy that I can leave them is the thought, even if it is buried deeply in their unconscious, that both hybrids and EVs can be a responsible and workable solution to their transportation needs somewhere off in the future -- whether I'm still around or not. Is my example making a difference? Up to this point, only maybe. Both have downsized their primary vehicles… to smaller ICE powered car/small pick up. But, 'hope springs eternal.'

So that's my story. I know it is not typical due the luck noted above. But I strongly believe that there are many folk who can also find that an EV is easily workable for daily transportation… But only if they can overcome the typical American thinking of, "What is the biggest, most 'luxurious' vehicle that will accomodaate my desires and I can just barely afford right now," and substitute, "What is the smallest, most energy efficient vehicle that meets my needs over the long term, even if it may have a somewhat larger initial cost."

NB - Should you want more on my THINK City experience, a lot now probably repetitous, see my threads in the Th!nk EVs | PriusChat sub-forum.

 

I think there are cheerleaders on boths sides of fence, but both sling more mud than is due. I used to have 2006 Jetta TDI, which went to 200,000km before it required brake replacement. over the course of 250,000km of ownership I had about $2000 in unscheduled repair costs. Scheduled included one $600 timing belt job, and many 16,000km interval $50 services (done by me). I consider tires to be a wash.

Prius is a more reliable fuel efficient car (below 80mph), but it seems Prius owners overblow the VW service tax, and Jetta owners overhype the Prius's "poor drivers experience". I think the feedback and FE capabilites add to the experience if that's your thing.

As a former TDI owner I'd choose a Prius hands down today, but would consider a diesel given the proper package (Mazda 3 hatchback diesel?...).

I just purchase a new car (Mazda 3 Skyactiv), but heavily considered the Prius C. The Prius C absolutely spanked everything else when it came to MPG. Unfortunately it was a little too small for my families needs and the regular Prius in Canada is saddled with poor financing rates making it a much more expensive car than some of the other fuel efficient offerings. It 0%-2% financing were an option I'd be driving a liftback Prius today.

 

5 years ago there was a Jetta. Now there is a Golf (think TDI powered GTI), Beetle, Beetle Convertible, and Passat. Passat does a number of things differently than the previous cars. What makes you say nothing has changed?

 

I didn't know your definition of "change". But it seems you want an increase in size and mpg? Compare the Jetta to the Passat, which is bigger. The Passat uses SCR to take care of NOx instead of EGR. It also has changes to the fuel and induction system, and taller gearing for the manual transmission versions (not sure about automatic).

2012 Volkswagen Jetta MPG Reports | Fuelly
2012 Volkswagen Passat MPG Reports | Fuelly

 

SCR: Lets the engine operate with less EGR for greater efficiency
Gear ratio changes: Keeps the engine operating at more efficient speeds for improved efficiency
Air to water intercooler: Warms up the engine faster, lower intake temperatures, less problems with intercooler icing
Solenoid fuel injectors: not sure for the reason.

I'm sure there is plenty more that I'm not aware of. Just saying that your data seem to only skim the surface if it goes back 5 years and you don't see any changes. If you want to compare 2004 to today, the Jetta has gone through several evolutionary steps from the 1.9 unit injector engine to the 2.0 common rail engine of today.

 

Estimated $850M surplus for the next year.
UPDATE 2-California Governor Brown stands by 2014 budget surplus| Reuters

Also, in dense cities (think LA smog) something needs to be done to clear the air for the public good. CA has always led the nation in this regards.

Mike

 

Ok, this will be my last post about this, because it's obviously going nowhere.

1) I never said Tesla vehicles don't qualify for Fed or State incentives. My point was they have a target audience and are producing a product that will sustain itself without incentives.
2) I understand why the gov. offers these incentives, however I don't agree with that philosophy.
3) I stand corrected on the unavailable bottom tier Tesla.
4) The reason I made the comments in the first place was because one individual was saying that the TDI's were inferior to the RAV4ev. Point being an electric high priced SUV is not necessarily a superior vehicle.
Ok I'm done!

 

Getting this thread back on track, Edmunds has now published the wrap-up to their one-year test of a Prius c Three.

Summary:

Pros: We averaged 45 mpg over 16,000 miles, zero maintenance costs, hatchback utility, comfortable front seats, simple cabin layout, not a single issue over the course of a year.

Cons: Barely tolerable level of power, considerable road noise, follows grooves in the highway, touchy brakes.

Bottom Line: Come to terms with the inherent power deficiencies of its hybrid platform and don't look back. The 2012 Toyota Prius C offers a lot of value for those seeking a practical 45 mpg subcompact.

 

Brakes feel fine to me.