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Efficient Electric Generation

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by cubbyg, Feb 28, 2007.

  1. cubbyg

    cubbyg Junior Member

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    What is the difference in the effieicncy of electric generation between braking or coasting with your foot off the pedal? Which charges the battey more effectively??? I tried to reserch the diference in the manual, but was unsuccessful in detrmining the difference?
     
  2. dmckinstry

    dmckinstry New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cubbyg @ Feb 28 2007, 08:12 PM) [snapback]398258[/snapback]</div>
    I haven't seen anything official on this, but I'd assume (based on I^2R power losses to internal resistance) that the slowest charging rate would give the greatest efficiency in charging. Thus, slowly coasting to a stop without braking should be better. I'm open to hearing from anyone who has done or heard of actual testing though.

    Dave M.
     
  3. ken1784

    ken1784 SuperMID designer

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  4. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Your question is more complicated than you probably realize.

    It's been determined that the most efficent 'charge rate' occurs with about 60 amp braking...this is a moderate steady regenerative brake pressure. By most efficient we're talking about the amount of energy from a given speed that ends up going to the battery.

    Now, that's all well and good. But most efficient charge rate isn't the same as most efficient braking for conservation of energy/fuel economy.

    Think of it this way....You're 2 miles from a stop sign going 60mph and are trying to decide how you want to approach the stop.

    At 1 1/2 mile away you can decide to go into a glide...easing your foot off the gas so that the ICE stops burning fuel and only minimal charge is being drained from the battery. You gradually slow over the 1 1/2 miles coming quietly to a stop at/near the stop sign. You regenerated nothing...in fact you drained some charge from the battery during the glide. But also you burned no fuel for a full 1 1/2 miles. So a minor net energy used for that distance.
    OR
    At 1 mile you decide to just coast...foot off gas and brake. Thus you had to burn gas until the 1 mile mark (net energy loss). Coasting regenerates at a rate of ~12 amps. So over that distance you regenerate back a portion of the gas you burned to the 1 mile mark... Net you're still behind what you would have been w/ scenario #1.
    OR
    At 1/2 mile from the stop you go into a nice 60amp brake to a stop. You charge the battery up 2 full bars and that looks nice on the display. But you had to burn gas for a full mile more than scenario #1 and a 1/2 mile more than scenario #2. Clearly your net energy use is more for this scenario even though the battery SOC is higher than either of the 2 above.

    Now, reality intervenes....if you're on a road with other cars scenario 1 is completely impractical. Scenario 2 is likely very rude if not impractical. Scenario 3 might even piss off some people who'd rather you stay at 60mph until 100 ft before the stop sign.

    The beauty is that the energy difference of the 3 scenarios is fairly small and only when you get into the hypermiling situation like some of us fanatics it just doesn't make a major difference...as long as you anticipate stops and traffic and try to avoid abrupt/late braking and aggressive starts you're going to do ok.
     
  5. dmckinstry

    dmckinstry New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ Feb 28 2007, 09:27 PM) [snapback]398292[/snapback]</div>
    Good. That's useful to know.

    Dave M.
     
  6. sub3marathonman

    sub3marathonman Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Mar 1 2007, 11:10 AM) [snapback]398377[/snapback]</div>
    If you did a glide for 1.5 miles at some point you would have to either brake or coast to come to a stop, so there would be some regeneration. In fact, I thought that combining the first and third option would give the maximum regeneration. What I would say is glide and brake, instead of coast until stopped.

    Also, in actual driving conditions I try to be braking/regenerating at the efficient rate until 8 mph when I can then coast, since you're then using the mechanical brakes if you continue to brake. Of course, if you can brake sooner and maintain a slower speed, but higher than 8 mph, until the light turns green you're that much better off too.
     
  7. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sub3marathonman @ Mar 1 2007, 12:50 PM) [snapback]398597[/snapback]</div>
    The point of my example was the theoretical 'glide to a stop' to make a point. Clearly that's pretty difficult to do in real life and you would either have to apply brakes if your glide is going to carry you too far or you'd have to add power (either electric or gas) to carry you the full distance.

    And the ideal condition would still be scenario 1...that is a perfectly timed glide to a stop...it's just not practical in 99.9% of situations. So I, too, tend to employ something more like what you suggest...get into a glide that helps maintain speed as far away from my intended stop as possible then brake when I can regen maximally depending upon my speed and distance from the stop. This causes the least frustration to traffic behind me well still achieving an efficient energy use state.
     
  8. cubbyg

    cubbyg Junior Member

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    Thanks, All. Sounds like there are still a few options to consider, but the overriding one is that we do NOT drive in a vacuum. So, me thinks that some reasonable combination would be prudent.

    Now that we have hashed this a bit. Try chewing this one for a while.

    I read that when the ICE starts up that is is more fuel efficient to accelerate judiciously up to speed bacause slow acceleration uses more gas for a prolonged period and you are best to get up to speed so you can coast or glide and then cycle again. Any thoughts on this?????
     
  9. nerfer

    nerfer A young senior member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sub3marathonman @ Mar 1 2007, 12:50 PM) [snapback]398597[/snapback]</div>
    Isn't that 8mph limit for mechanical brakes something that only applies to NHW11 (pre-2004) vehicles? The current generation can regenerate power all the way to a stop, I thought.
     
  10. cubbyg

    cubbyg Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Mar 2 2007, 12:29 AM) [snapback]398912[/snapback]</div>

    The electric generation still stops at 7mph and below. Watch the electric flow diagram, it stops recharging the battery at this speed and below/
     
  11. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cubbyg @ Mar 1 2007, 11:08 PM) [snapback]398904[/snapback]</div>
    It's kind of relative and, again, varies w/ conditions.

    What I've found most recently is the following:
    From a cold start (car off power up to READY) the car will burn much more richly than once through the warm-up stages. The car "likes" to run at 1275 RPM during this stage 1 warm-up. If you can very gently accelerate during this time you'll stay at a minimal fuel flow and minimal battery drain...do that for about 30-60 seconds and you'll get into stage 2 where fuel flow reduces to a more efficient rate for a given degree of acceleration.

    Now, if you're already warmed up and you're starting from a stop then a moderate degree of acceleration seems most efficient. If you can keep the ICE RPM b/w ~1700-2300 this seems to be the best acceleration for fuel use range... See Hobbit's work on this HERE