EGR & Intake Manifold Clean Results

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Rebound, Jun 25, 2017.

  1. tacopyro

    tacopyro Junior Member

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    P219A probable causes: (taken from a OBD code site) - and my amateur suggestions.
    • Engine vacuum leak (large) - maybe. you may hear the hiss of vacuum if so.
    • Defective oxygen sensor/s - unlikely
    • Burnt, chafed, broken, or disconnected wiring and/or connectors - possible since you just had it taken apart. intermittent if its touch and go inside the wire jacket or loom.
    • Engine exhaust leaks - also possible if the EGR was cleaned
    • A faulty mass air flow or manifold air pressure sensor - check wiring? tho, if not plugged, will give CEL of MAF/IAT /MAP
    • Bad fuel pump or clogged fuel filter - unlikely
    • clogged intake manifold EGR ports - maybe not cleaned enough. mine was flowing but after 4 cans of carb clean and 1 wk of oxyclean soak, still black coming out.
    • stuck EGR valve ? - not sure if that would give CEL.
    if i may suggest, take it apart yourself and check that all connections are good and up to spec. lots of guidance in this thread.

    There are also TSB for corolla and tacoma for this CEL code for later models which required a cyl head R&R. T-SB 0107-14 / T-SB-0055-15.
     
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  2. 2ewes4me

    2ewes4me Junior Member

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    Thanks much- I am passing along your suggestions to the mechanic.
     
  3. Rebound

    Rebound Senior Member

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    I think, if anything, the hot air should flow towards the gasket in the direction shown in your photo. Otherwise hot gas would try to enter into the edge in the gasket and weaken it.
     
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  4. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    That's mostly the case in the video I linked (and my subsequent schematic), on previous page: the protrusions on the gaskets are in the direction of flow.There is one exception, the gasket at exhaust manifold, which has protrusion pointing towards the exhaust manifold.

    Yeah I'm not sure what happens: when that gasket is clamped the protruding edge will near-completely compress?
     
    #384 Mendel Leisk, May 13, 2020
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
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  5. wheezyglider

    wheezyglider Active Member

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    Yes reviewing the video (and notes) they match your sketch -- the gaskets all orient with indentation towards direction of flow. That exhaust-to-cooler one is a two-part one though, and one half points back towards the exhaust. Kinda sticks in the craw, but compression no doubt makes it all moot.

    Hope your repair is going well. From another quick look at your case history -- has your mechanic looked for signs of a blown head gasket?
     
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  6. RMB

    RMB Senior Member

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    Yesterday I took out the intake manifold and did some cleaning. My Prius has 82k miles on the odo, mostly driven in slow and go traffic jams. Since last year (up until shelter in place) I need to go up a steep hill that requires a 3500 rpm pull:eek:. No oil burning at the moment. Even though oil catch can was installed approximately 40k miles ago, occasional cleaning of oil puddle at the bottom of intake manifold is still required:unsure:.

    Since it was a sudden opportunity to work on my car, I didn't replace any gaskets, PCV valve, or clean EGR cooler/valve. I said sudden because my in-law's neighbor went to work so the shared garage was available for a few hours, but probably short of the time needed to do the complete EGR system cleaning. Gaskets were removed prior to spraying with Brakleen, and they look and feel to be in usable condition. Before and after photos:

    Oil puddle at "the Pond": IMG_1447.JPG IMG_1458.JPG
    Intake manifold/EGR passages: IMG_1456.JPG IMG_1459.JPG
    Cylinder head intake ports: [​IMG] IMG_1450.JPG IMG_1461.JPG IMG_1462.jpg

    About one and a half bottle of brakleen later most of the oil film and carbon deposits were cleaned out. The intake manifold was coated with oil, EGR pipe has a layer of carbon deposit. The manifold took the longest time to spray down and wipe clean, MAP sensor was spayed with MAF cleaner, EGR pipe wasn't hard to clean either. Looks like TopTier gasoline and Techrons are doing their job, intake valves area look clean comparing to the intake port entrance.

    Big THANKS to @NutzAboutBolts for the videos, I was watching the Youtube video during the whole process(y).
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    Good to see you got it sorted while you had time on your hands :).

    But you've led the egr circuit cleanse at meet ups, so why'd ya need the videos:whistle:?

    Always good to double check if nothing else I guess;).

    Stay safe in Oak Town(y).
     
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  8. RMB

    RMB Senior Member

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    Lol it’s better safe than sorry isn’t it:p? Besides, it’s good to have a plan and to follow the plan, and the videos are the perfect plan.(y)
     
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  9. 2ewes4me

    2ewes4me Junior Member

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    50 days in and problems with our 2011 still exist.

    To review- approx. 240,000 miles.
    Car started shaking and running rough- Toyota dealership ran diagnostics and said replace EGR and intake manifold.
    Our mechanic replaced EGR first, and cleaned carbon build up- no improvement. Next he replaced the spark plugs and coils/boots, as it hadn't been done for 100,000+ miles. Although the intake manifold was not at all restricted he replaced that next- no improvement.

    He unplugged the EGR and the car still misfires. He said it's not recirculating exhaust gas.
    Codes lead to cylinder 4.
    Spark plug #4 has unburned fuel on it when he pulled it.
    Cylinder 4 and cylinder 2 pressures are the same, but cylinder 4 is not contributing.

    From reading here, we suggested cleaning the EGR cooler. He doesn't think that's it, but would bill us 2 hours to tear it apart to clean.
    He said it runs even rougher than it did before starting these repairs :(

    Where would you look next?
    Any suggestions that we can pass on to our mechanic would be appreciated.
    I'm driving an old borrowed Dodge caravan (which I am thankful for the use of) but I've forgotten what it feels like to drive my nice little Prius!
     
  10. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    Where would you look next? Look for another mechanic!
    OR actually, someone who knows how to repair a Prius.
    Don't know what state you are in, but I'm certain there is someone in your state that does.

    Look around here and see if someone is close to you, maybe they would be willing to help
    you resolve your problem.

    You'll have to check, but legally, if they say "this" will fix the problem. And they charge you to "fix" it,
    and it doesn't "fix" the problem, you don't have to pay, and shouldn't pay.
    They should put all the original parts back on, because they didn't "fix" your problem.

    You're mechanic seems to be guessing at what it is, or just relying on what Toyota is telling him.
    WHY would Toyota help their competition? They're probably laughing at him!
    "we suggested cleaning the EGR cooler. He doesn't think that's it." ???????
    Don't think, feeeeellllllll!!! :)
    I would bet that the egr cooler is clogged.

    "Cylinder 4 and cylinder 2 pressures are the same, but cylinder 4 is not contributing."
    I know it's a typo, buttttt, I am guessing that maybe you mean Cylinders "1" and 2 are the same,
    but #4 is zero? What about #3? I am thinking head gasket now, possibly, with those miles.

    I know I sound gloomy, I don't mean to, I just like to be straight forward and not beat around the bush.
     
  11. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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  12. 2ewes4me

    2ewes4me Junior Member

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    ASRDogman,
    Thanks for your comments, but it wasn't a typo...I was jotting notes as fast as I could when the mechanic called. He said Cylinder 4 isn't contributing
    He is a good mechanic- has worked on several of our cars for years, but isn't Toyota trained- his charges have been significantly less than the Toyota garage, and is being honest when he says he isn't sure where to look next. He said with the EGR valve unplugged, it shouldn't be misfiring...but it is.

    We are in rural WI, and I wish we had someone nearby to call upon for help, but we don't know of anyone else.
     
  13. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    Ok, I only went by what you wrote. And I know typing is a lot different that talking.
    "Cylinder 4 and cylinder 2 pressures are the same, but cylinder 4 is not contributing."
    If cylinder #4 and 2 pressures are the same, but #4 is not contributing... then neither is #2.
    I think there is some miss hearing somewhere. :)

    I take it he did a compression test then? That could mean many things. A valve is bent/sticking, no compression.
    Rings are stuck closed. Hole in piston. A large portion of the head gasket around #4 is gone.

    With the info you've gotten and have given, my guess would be the egr cooler clogged up, cause back pressure, which
    caused the head gasket to blow.
    Have you noticed your coolant level dropping in the tank? Passenger side of engine.

    If he's been honest with your, and you TRUST him, stick with him.
     
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  14. tacopyro

    tacopyro Junior Member

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    @2ewes4me
    if there is unburned fuel in Cyl 4. i wonder if it has spark? if it has spark then you have other issues.
    also to clarify, when you say cylinder #4, is that the driver side or the passenger side?
     
  15. 2ewes4me

    2ewes4me Junior Member

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    Coolant level has remained stable
    Sorry, I don't know that- the mechanic said he plans to order another ignition coil to watch it- as the part could be returned
     
  16. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    @2ewes4me with high miles like yours, this chasing around the coils and egr/iintake cleaning, while commendable, often is for naught, and the issue turns out to be a failing head gasket.

    I believe clean EGR is paramount for head gasket longevity. But once the head gasket has started leaking, you've got to address that first.

    Again, I'd recommend leak down test, to see where you're at.
     
    #396 Mendel Leisk, May 21, 2020
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  17. 2012 Prius v wagon 3

    2012 Prius v wagon 3 Active Member

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    There is a LOT of missing / ambiguous / doubtful info in here that makes it hard for people to understand what is going on. I'd recommend the best thing to do at this point is to actually go down to your mechanic's shop, with a notepad / keyboard / recorder or whatever it takes to get complete and accurate info on what he has already done, and what he thinks based on that.

    Examples:
    "codes" - do I need to say what more info would help here?
    "the EGR" - that is a system with several components. Is he talking about the valve only?
    "Cylinder 4 and cylinder 2 pressures are the same, but cylinder 4 is not contributing" - ???????????????? Does he mean that doing a compression test showed both 2 and 4 as the same (what about 1+3???), but when running, #4 is misfiring there is no combustion?

    Needing to guess and wonder about what this diagnosis report means may be the toughest part of solving the problem, and it does not need to be that way.

    If you really think the EGR system is causing a combustion problem now, and want to be really sure it is not functioning, rather than just unplugging the EGR valve, you could pretty easily put a blocking plate somewhere in the system - e.g., at the rear (upstream) end of the EGR pipe, where it meets the valve.

    And in general, "Toyota dealership ran diagnostics and said replace EGR and intake manifold" ... I understand the logic there. You believe the dealership gave you a good diagnosis and you save some $$ by having your indy do the job. Good strategy. But it might help to understand that a dealership will operate with a different MO than most people on this list, and even many indys.

    So the dealership may very quickly just say replace A+B+C because most of their customers drive in knowing nothing at all other than that they only have $1000 to spend right now, and the dealer will take care of that for them, whether it is done efficiently or not. Exaggerating a little there. But replacing the intake manifold is almost certainly overkill. It may have needed to have the EGR ports in it cleaned out carefully, but there is not much else to go wrong unless it is cracked.

    I learned this many years ago when I first started fixing my cars. Before I knew what I was doing, I would almost blindly follow the professional diagnoses and replace the parts myself. Not good, but I learned.
     
  18. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Yeah you can completely clean and restore to new the full EGR system and intake manifold (which is the last leg of the EGR) for near zero, no parts replacement. Just a can or two of brake cleaner, maybe some Oxi-Clean or Oven Cleaner for floating the carbon out of the EGR cooler, and a session or two with a pressure washer, if you're so inclined.

    With higher miles, replacement of the intake manifold gaskets (at intake port, throttle body and EGR pipe connections) would be warranted. That would not be much over $50 USD, if that.

    Watch the @NutzAboutBolts videos, pinned thread with links at the top of this forum.
     
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  19. trojandnc

    trojandnc New Member

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    Just did the egr pipe/cooler job outside in 100 degree heat. Started at 6:30 AM thinking I could get everything torn down to just having to remove the cooler. But ended up spending 3 hours running around looking for an extra long 12mm ratcheting wrench for the bolt on the side of the block. And then another hour (and trip to AutoZone to get a 12 mm deep socket and a flex socket) to get at that bottom nut on that hidden stud.

    I went through nearly four cans of BrakeKleen and got most everything cleaned up good (wasn’t happy with the final results of the cooler after working on it for an hour) and got everything put back together way quicker than I expected.

    When I started her up the engine light came on (was not on before - 136,000 miles) and as I pulled off the engine was shuttering violently and she sounded like a tank. I drove through the neighborhood and out on a nearby highway. Still rough.

    I thought to myself, “Well, you’ve done a bang up job this time.” So, I go ahead and put the windshield wiper motor and cowel (six) back on and head to AutoZone to see if they can pull the code. They can’t due to COVID, so I buy coolant to top off what I had lost and then headed to the dealer. They were closed.

    I then remembered, when I was a service writer in a previous life, that you had to sometimes just drive a car to complete something called “drive cycles” (correct me if I’m wrong or explain better) which is like 20 or 30 miles so I headed back out for a little road trip. The shutter was still there but wasn’t as bad as in the beginning. So I drove the 20 or so miles to a Sheetz gas station, filled up, and when I started her back up... no engine light! There was still a slight engine shake under light acceleration (more noticeable with ac on) but nothing at moderate or full acceleration.

    So, evidently, I did everything as right as I could (thanks to NutzAboutBolts YT video).

    One thing I did notice is that the engine seems to stay idling higher longer now both on the highway while coasting and at a stop. When I pulled back up at home I had a full charge on the hybrid battery and ac off, but the combustion engine kicked on. I sat there a minute or so but it didn’t cut off.

    I turn the car off and then back on. It was on the hybrid battery. But my car had never idled that long with a full charge.

    Any ideas on what may be causing this? Sticking EGR valve maybe?
     
  20. Montgomery

    Montgomery Senior Member

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    I recently had my car in for the recall for the main computer (something to do with the computer shutting off the engine). After the fix at the dealer, for the first 2 weeks, my engine would fire up more often and idle even though the battery didn't need charging. My guess is that when you reset the main computer, it has to re-learn driving habits, etc. It's been a month now and the car is getting back to normal. I hope this was your case as well.
     
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