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Electric cars bypassed: New auto technology arises

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Godiva, May 25, 2005.

  1. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    Nearly 15 years ago, electric cars were all the road rage with bureaucrats and environmentalists who thought the nonpolluting vehicles would eventually take over California's freeways.

    But the growing popularity of hybrid cars and an upcoming state "Hydrogen Highway" proposal highlight how other cheaper, more convenient or politically expedient technologies have leapfrogged the vehicles powered by rechargeable batteries.

    The electric car is wheezing its last breath. Fewer than 1,000 of them remain on the road in California, and automakers have turned their backs on the technology.

    http://www.sacbee.com/content/business/sto...-13798478c.html

    Seems not all of the electric cars are being crushed.

    There's a nice chart on the bottom comparing road share for gasoline, diesel, hybrid and other.

    Reading the article about the electric recharging stations, I can't help feel that the hydrogen refueling stations are going to end up exactly the same.

    I really think we need to push hybrids for the next 10-20 years while developing better batteries, et al so we can go with an really good electric car. Maybe it still has an ICE but only for emergencies like long road trips where there may not be refueling stations. Of course everyone needs photovoltaic panels on their roofs too. If we produced enough electricity during they day for you own use then the companies would only be producing power to recharge our cars at night. I certainly wouldn't mind having panels across my entire roof and generating more than I need...except I don't see why I should pay for them since I'm not going to be paid for any extra I produce. Local thing.
     
    #1 Godiva, May 25, 2005
  2. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Good point.

    Unfortunately, and this is just a general observation and not against anything you've done, I rather doubt the large utility companies and Big Energy would want energy self-sufficient consumers.

    That's why any "real" attempt by the consumer to truly save energy is cost prohibitive. That way we're still forced to accept portions from the Big Energy utilities and companies on their terms, not ours.

    Much like how some co-generation systems are synchronous, so if the utility feed is lost - a blackout - the cogen system shuts down too. This is usually on the laughable premise of "safety."

    Like a DPDT transfer switch wouldn't accomplish the same thing.
     
    #2 jayman, May 25, 2005
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    I noticed that fuel-cell hype resemblance too. Intriguing parallel, eh?
     
    #3 john1701a, May 25, 2005
  4. prius04

    prius04 New Member

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    The electric car is wheezing along on it's last breath because society -- meaning our governments, funded R&D in a half hearted way while funding oil exploration and now hydrogen in a rather overwhelming way.

    Hybirds is not the replacement for total electric cars, hybirds are the pathway to total electric cars. The success of the 50MPG Prius is leading to more hybrids. More hybrids means more batteries. More batteries will lead to better batteries. Eventually batteries will get so good that they will go twice as far as the one in the link below, and seat 7, and still be able to tow a boat.

    http://www.commutercars.com/

    And as for recharge stations, First of all, Toshiba has a 60 second recharge technology, but if this doesn't pan out, it still doesn't mean you need to recharge when you drive long distances.

    Why recharge when you can replace them? For those that must drive cross country, why not have all batteries be standardized in shape and size, and then when you drive 3000 miles, you can change your battery every 500 miles. Just put a door in the car where the battery slides in and out, like a cell phone battery. (A computer in the battery could keep track of how old it is so you don't get stuck with trading in a brand new battery for a battery near the end of it's life.)

    And most of the infrastructure is already there. No need for hydrogen tanker trucks driving down the highway when we already have eletric lines.

    Of course, we will need much better ways to make electricity.

    And unlike hydrogen, we won't need to change the infrastructure overnight. First hybrids, then plug in hybrids, they plug in hybrids that go farther and farther, then plug in hybrids with replaceable batteries, then, as more and more places are able to exchange those batteries, eventually we can due without the ICE.
     
    #4 prius04, May 25, 2005
  5. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman\";p=\"92690)</div>
    Well, yeah. Which is the problem with it being a private for profit enterprise. Not to sound fascist or communist or socialist or anything like that. But sometimes I get tired of perpetuated waste for the sake of profit instead of 'doing the right thing' in the big and long picture. While I apprectiate Toyota's development of the Prius I think they should let the owners who want to purchase their Rav4EV for $1 like Ford did.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman\";p=\"92690)</div>
    And why you have to not need to save money on energy to be able to afford to do it in the first place. Only the rich can afford to be energy independent. I think our roofs should be "rented" by the utility companies for them to use for solar panels to generate electricity and I should get it for free in exchange for them using my roof. They get the surplus to sell to those that can't/don't generate their own. Instead I'll have to spend tens of thousands of my own money if I do it. Which will have to be after the car is paid off. However, if I do it I imagine it wouldn't be that hard to eventually extend the system and switch it to self-sufficient. You start by only generating as much as you need to zero out your utility bill with the thing that makes the meter go backward. Trouble is it's only cost effective to put on only as much as you need to zero out your bill since the company doesn't buy the extra.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman\";p=\"92690)</div>
    Well, the equipment and batteries to be self-sufficient are really expensive.

    Believing the utility companies is on a par with believing the oil industry, the banking industry, the pharmeceutical industry...well, you get my drift. So when the price goes way up or whatever, I can always extend my system and add (what will hopefully be by that time) advanced batteries that will allow me to have power at night, during blackouts and on rainy, cloudy days. It costs a lot more to do that. But in ten years who know? There could be some really great technology as a result of advancements made in batteries for hybrid cars. I'm willing to wait if I can stick it to SDGE but good. And my house is perfect for solar.

    I'm sure I'll be eventually capturing rainwater from my roof like my parents and using that to irrigate my yard whether brown water is legal or not. I have a washing machine that uses recycled water. I can save the rinse water from the previous load to wash the next. Consumer reports tested it and the clothes are just as clean. This can not only save me water but if the first load was hot and the second only needs warm or cold it also saves me on energy. And yes, I don't think they make that washer any more. I'm glad I bought one. (And no, they're not going to take it back and crush it in the desert.)

    I'm just tired of bending over and then having to say "thank you" afterwards. No one has done a poll, but I'll bet a higher percentage of Prius/Hybrid owners also have solar something on their houses.

    I'm having a solatube skylight put in my kitchen to start.
     
    #5 Godiva, May 25, 2005
  6. Fredatgolf

    Fredatgolf New Member

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    The discussion on electric cars and the points made above all fall under the umbrella of power or energy. Read Buckminster Fuller's Critical Path, written in 1981 and it will change the way you think about energy forever.
     
    #6 Fredatgolf, May 25, 2005
  7. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    What we need is a solar panel moonroof similar to that on the Audi A8 on the Prius. That way, we can have the A/C running in IG-ON mode and not drain the HV battery but use the electricity from the solar panels. Would that work? The panels could also run the power windows/mirrors in OFF or ACC without going to IG-ON.
     
    #7 Tideland Prius, May 25, 2005
  8. Anonymous

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    Hybrid car development is now set to run along an inevitable path....

    ... the gas engine will continue to contribute less, and the electric motor to contribute more.

    You've even seen it in the first three Prius revisions.

    Motor power: 30 -> 33 -> 50 kW

    Battery power density: 600 - 900 - 1250 W/kg

    And that's just since 1997!

    This is just the start of an inexorable climb towards more battery use and less gas use - Toyota themselves admit that electric drivetrains will replace transmissions in the near future. Once motor output reaches 80kW, you can expect the first plug-in hybrids to appear. From then it's just a case of watching the battery get bigger and the gas engine smaller....
     
    #8 Anonymous, May 26, 2005
  9. vincent1449p

    vincent1449p Active Member

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    #9 vincent1449p, May 26, 2005
  10. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett\";p=\"92859)</div>
    YES! That's what I'm talking about. A gradual process. Weaning.

    I think the problem is wanting to jump from point D to point Q without going through the interim steps. Occasionally you can skip a little one or two, but giant leaps aren't going to happen successfully. It's like trying to bring a battleship to a complete stop in the ocean. You're not going to switch the public from straight gasoline to straight electric. And the technology has been lacking to successfully compete.

    But if you have a growing percentage of the public switching from straight gas to hybrid and at the same time the hybrids get better and better in 15 years we're not looking at switching to hydrogen....we're looking at electric plugins...and a lot more photovoltaic panels an roofs.

    But let the government and GM pursue hydrogen. It will keep them occupied and misdirected while hybrids creep on on them. Once they realize what's happening the tipping point will be passed and they won't be able to stop it. Sorta the same strategy the environmentalists are using with emissions. They stopped trying in D.C. and moved to the State level. Their strategy is that if they can get a certain amount of states to adopt the California standards the rest of the nation will follow.
     
    #10 Godiva, May 26, 2005
  11. Anonymous

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vincent1449p\";p=\"92861)</div>
    Those are Panasonic's figures, but the ones published by Toyota are different. (See John's Prius history here).

    The jump from gen1 to gen2 ('97 to '00) is quite big, as shown on the Toyota website http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environmen...ths2/power.html.

    Maybe Toyota includes the weight of their casings in the calculation and Panasonic doesn't? :?
     
    #11 Anonymous, May 26, 2005
  12. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva\";p=\"92724)</div>
    No, of course that's not "communist." I'm a Conservative in the very literal meaning of the word. Most of the current crop of "conservatives" in Canada and the United States appear to spend money like drunk sailors on leave, fully embracing a welfare state that they used to decry. Fah.

    All this talk of short-term "profit" is a fantasy, nothing more than accounting hocus-pocus. It's a Ponzi Scheme. And like any Ponzi Scheme (Enron in the United States or Bell Canada International in Canada) you and I end up paying for it for the rest of our lives. Cute.

    Anytime you focus on short-term "profit" you almost always set yourself up for a long-term failure. Whenever you focus on long-term survivability, you almost always plan to guarantee it.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva\";p=\"92724)</div>
    My hobby farm is mostly there right now. You're right, you need a lot of money to make it happen. It's outrageous that many rebate programs for residences to encourage the purchase of energy-efficient HVAC and other appliances has been scaled back or canceled. But large customer rebates are increased.

    Though Manitoba Hydro is giving away 4 compact flourescent lamps to eligible residential customers. The rationale is a bit odd: they want to increase power exports to the United States, so more saving is needed on the domestic front.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva\";p=\"92724)</div>
    Actually, a cogen system is mostly self-sufficient, many produce more power than the local source can consumer so the excess is metered back to the utility. The utility makes a big deal about "synchronizing" the cogen to the utility, like it's rocket science. We've only known how to synchronize AC power generation for 100 years or so. I guess it's still "unproven."

    Another big "concern" of the utility is the issue of personnel safety during an outage. The cogen "might" backfeed and electrocute linemen. Bah. That's what the DPDT transfer switch is used for. Very lame excuses.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva\";p=\"92724)</div>
    Yep I do.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva\";p=\"92724)</div>
    I'm just surprised that more folks don't do that.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva\";p=\"92724)</div>
    I love my front loading Kenmore. Very efficient, unfortunately very expensive too, so out of the reach of most folks.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva\";p=\"92724)</div>
    You're not the only one. We're supposed to be willing consumer sheep, as long as we go "Baaaa" everybody is happy.
     
    #12 jayman, May 26, 2005
  13. thorn

    thorn Member

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    Hmm, Toyota also increased the ICE size according to John1701's web site:

    ICE: 58hp -> 70hp-> 76hp.

    I wonder how the MPG is on the different versions?

    Also the Highlander and Accord hybrids use a V6! They should have used a 4cyl.
     
    #13 thorn, May 26, 2005
  14. bookrats

    bookrats New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(thorn\";p=\"92936)</div>
    Actually increased between the 2001-2003 Prius and the current model. (And the '04-05 is a significantly bigger car.)

    I'm trying to remember if this is because of an increased battery size, or improved software, or something else. Can't -- sorry!
     
    #14 bookrats, May 26, 2005
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