1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Electric "Heater In a Box" System

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by Michael33, Jan 8, 2014.

  1. Michael33

    Michael33 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    372
    62
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    If you keep the discharges to less than 50% of capacity, and recharge promptly, several years is possible, although a couple of years is more likely. For this application, where the battery may have to sit at work partially discharged, a "Greensaver" battery might work best. These don't have sulfur in the electrolyte, and supposedly don't get sulfate buildup if they sit partially discharged. I have a broken electric motorscooter with five 38AH Greensavers in it, and may use one of them if the system works.
     
  2. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    How much do the batteries cost?
     
  3. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,312
    3,588
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    The marine batteries just look like regular big lead acid batteries for cars. I have one for my canoe but probably sulfate built up. I was trying think of a way to solar power the little fishing motor to skip the battery, but it takes 5-10 AMPS.
     
  4. Michael33

    Michael33 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    372
    62
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Marine deep discharge batteries are a compromise design: they can withstand deeper discharges than car starting batteries, but not as deep as real deep cycle batteries.
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,693
    48,945
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    see post #19.:)
     
  6. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Wow! Someone's REALLY gotta LOVE heat and HATE to start up the ICE at that price. And it's only good for a couple of years?
     
  7. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2011
    3,159
    988
    0
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Seriously, why not use one of these batteries? Reconnect it to put out 14.4V @, 30 Ah. The weight benefit is phenomenal and they last much longer than lead acid and much safer.

     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,693
    48,945
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    looks interesting, but i'll leave it to michael. this is way over my head.
     
  9. Michael33

    Michael33 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    372
    62
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Charging and maintaining two lithium cells like that could be problematic. A lithium pack, with appropriate charger, would indeed be better than SLA, but also much more expensive and requiring more skill. I suggest that anyone who wants to go that route buy a pre-built pack, with charger.
     
  10. Tracksyde

    Tracksyde Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2011
    1,429
    761
    0
    Location:
    So Cal
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Sounds like Michael33 owns a Leaf too?

     
  11. Michael33

    Michael33 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    372
    62
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Yes, I drive a 2013 Leaf SV. The PIP is leased by my housemate and she usually drives that.
     
  12. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,994
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Heated seats are sufficient to heat the body. To prevent fogging up inside (and before freezing up overnight), how about portable mini dehumidifier?

    This may be off-topic but I just ordered this. Will let you guys know.

     
  13. Michael33

    Michael33 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    372
    62
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    I did the final "bench test" of the components of the prototype system this evening. The 800 watt inverter, which I hadn't tested with the heaters before, performed fine, powering both heaters smoothly and easily for close to ten minutes. The battery, however, isn't really up to more than testing, as I suspected. It's a roughly ten year old (I get some amazing lifetimes from lead-acid batteries!) 31AH deep cycle Dell battery, IIRC. I figure it has about 10AH of capacity left, now, so when the inverter started to complain (while still powering the heaters) after 8 minutes, I shut it all down. The battery read 12.14 volts immediately afterwards, but recovered on its own to 12.35 volts, which translates to about 45% capacity left. There was obviously some voltage "sag" but it wasn't excessive.

    Conclusion, so far: the battery/inverter/ 200 watt x 2 heater setup seems sound. Based on extrapolation only, it looks like a 30AH deep cycle battery (easier to carry) should provide half an hour's heat with this version. A 60AH marine type battery should provide about 50 minutes' worth of heat. Both estimates are based on no more than 50% (marine) and 70% (deep cycle) discharge. I still think it's worth trying a "Greensaver" battery, because of its supposed lack of sulfation when sitting partially discharged (like while the car is at work) and its (also alleged) low internal resistance, which would allow it to provide more amperage with less loss and less heat inside the battery case.

    The final test is, of course, with the heater "installed" inside a car. I may try the Prius PHEV first, because of space issues and the greater interest from the PIP folks, or I may use the Leaf if my housemate objects. In either case I should know how viable this idea is within a week or so.
     
  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,693
    48,945
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    interesting, how does it work?
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,693
    48,945
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    30 minutes would be perfect for me, that's typically how long my ev lasts in cold weather.
     
  16. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2011
    3,159
    988
    0
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    What's problematic about it? You could even use a normal 12V car charger. I do it all the time. The fact that the car charger will never charge it to full capacity means the batteries will likely last longer. If your really scared of battery cell imbalances, a low cost bms is easily installed.

    As for being much more expensive, the battery I referenced above is $109, bms about $30. I don't see where its more expensive. IMO, the positives far outweigh the negatives.
    Pros
    1) The above battery module is proven as it is the ones used in the Leaf
    2) It weighs far less than equivalent lead acid batt.
    3) It is much smaller
    4) No need for venting
    5) Produces much less heat
    6) Last 3 times as long
    7) No real danger of caustic chemical leaks

    Cons (you tell me, because I don't know many)
    1) Needs a bms???
     
    giora likes this.
  17. jdk2

    jdk2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    751
    219
    0
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    Not to sound dumb, which is obvious from the question but does this replace the 12v in the rear of the car?
     
  18. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2011
    3,159
    988
    0
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    It could but that's not what this is for but, it easily could replace the 12V.
     
    jdk2 likes this.
  19. jdk2

    jdk2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    751
    219
    0
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    Thanks.
     
  20. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,994
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    The crystals will absorb humidity. Once it gets full, you plug it in to "remove" water from the crystals. It can then be reused and it has 5 years warranty. Reviews said they last 10+ years so it'll be good for the life of the car.

    What's unique about it is, it'll work 24/7 without using electricity from the car nor a plug (wireless). I won't have to bother to plug/unplug to dehumidify. Just leave it in the car and done. If it is full, plug it in to renew.

    If it works well, I may buy another one. Not sure about the dimension but I can put it on sun visor or hang it on the pocket behind front seats.