Electric "Heater In a Box" System

In a way, they already do...

Toyota to offer optional AC outlets on Japan-market Priuses | PriusChat

 

Most of us are not so fortunate as to live right next to cheap, renewable, emission-free hydro power. For most of us, the choice is between using fume-creating electric generators to produce electric power with non-trivial losses during transmission to our homes, vs. a very efficient, albeit fume-creating, gasoline engine. Concerning emissions, how much other than carbon dioxide and water comes out of the exhaust of a car like the Prius, after the catalytic converter and other emission devices get done with it? I thought that it was pretty miniscule (like zero evaporative emissions for the PiP).

Please understand that I am not intending to be argumentative or critical. It's just a different way of looking at the situation that got my interest.

 

If you think that the hydro power in your area comes straight to your house you are very mistaken, the Grid is all inter connected and power flows to where the utilizes get the most dollars for their kilowatts.

 

many of our electric plants are being converted/replaced with domestic natural gas. of course, this has it's controversies as well...

 

But the waste heat is precisely what this thread is about. We are not comparing the relative efficiency of charging the traction battery using the ICE vs. using the grid. We are comparing using the ICE to heat the cabin, vs. using electricity from the grid to heat the cabin. Given the exhaust heat recovery process in the PiP, I would expect the ICE to be very efficient at heating the cabin. And recall that the ICE is "undersized" compared to what would be needed in a conventional car, since the system can draw on the battery for peak power demands.

 

Nope.

2/3 of energy is lost during electricity generation and transmission. That's weighted by kWh generated from all powerplants with various fuel sources.

That means by the time it gets to your outlet, it is 33% efficient. The waste heat at powerplant is not going into PiP cabin as it was lost already.

In the other hand, gasoline production and transportation is 85% efficient. The waste heat (part of 60%) from Atkinson cycle engine gets routed back into the cabin. The other 40% gets to drive the wheels.

Gas engine is playing the role of an engine, generator and heater in a small/light (relative) package. The best of all it is already onboard available to use.

 

Maybe things are going off on a wrong track due to semantics. Sorry if that is the case.

Why is it "waste" to use the heat from the ICE to heat the cabin? The ICE can propel the car and it can charge the battery. It can also just be used as a heat source, like burning oil or natural gas to heat one's home. My comments were about the tradeoffs between using electricity from the grid to heat the cabin vs. using the ICE to heat the cabin. I am not claiming that one or the other is "better" (by some definition of "better").

 

umm.......

How much electricity is lost in transmission and distribution in the United States? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
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The 2/3 lost being referred to is a combination of the thermodynamic losses and the transmission losses. The thermo losses range from about 60-65% (old coal plants) to ~40% (best NG plants). Then you add in the transmission losses.
These thermo losses apply to steam and NG plants, not wind, solar, hydro which have different metrics for efficiency, since the fuel itself is essentially free.

In the case of using PIP to heat the net efficiency is higher BECAUSE you are using the waste heat as well as powering the car.

Mike

 

I would like to raise the question of exactly WHAT emissions does the ICE in the PiP dump into the atmosphere other than carbon dioxide and water? Its AT-PZEV rating implies no evaporative emissions at all and miniscule amounts of carbon monoxide, oxides of nitrogen and particulate matter.

 

I'm going to guess you didn't notice - but my reply was too Seawolf ... who said that 2/3 of electricity transmission / production were lost ... so I hope your shorts aren't in a bunch from a reply directed to another's statement. Peace and love .
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That really, really all depends... On where you live, and the make up of where your electric comes from. In my case 70% of my years supply of electricity comes from the roof of my house. The other 30% is purchased on a 100% green plan. With that in mind I do know that the actual electrons may have flowed to my house from a not so nearby coal fired plant. The one down the road got mothballed a couple years back and is not likely to be brought back on line (Halleluia). NYS is now about 10% coal fired electricity.

Some of my electric is produced at Zotos International right here in Geneva from their 2 large wind turbines. My excess electricity flows to other homes in my neighborhood so that the loss in transmission is considerably less than 7%.

In my case I not only don't like burning fossilized dinosaur dung, I really don't like giving any of my $$$ to the likes of the Koch Brothers or other 1%ers. So I prefer using the EV part of the PiP as much as possible!