Electric Rates (where you live)

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by markabele, May 18, 2013.

  1. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    These panels are 1001 mm (39.41") wide, 1675 mm (65.94") long, and 31 mm (1.22") tall.

    I haven't compared this to other modules, but it seems that these 60 cell modules should be of reasonably standard size. Each cell is essentially a whole 8" wafer, somewhat squared off.
     
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  2. chesleyn

    chesleyn Active Member

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    Southern California Edison rates:

    Tier 1: 0.12 / kWh (0-281 kWh)
    Tier 2: 0.16 / kWh (282-365 kWh)
    Tier 3: 0.27 / kWk (366-562 kWh)
    Tier 4: 0.31 / kWh (563+ kWh)


    I stayed on the standard household plan as my car has a smaller battery and I charge more often.
     
  3. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Wick1ert,
    Fuzzy can answer your question, but for a 270 watt panel to have the same area as a 200 watt, the panel efficiency would have to be 270/200 higher. I think the SW panels available on the open (not through SW installers) market are 15.3%, implying your panels would have to be (15.3)(200/270) = 11.33%.

    More likely, your panels are ~ 13%, so SW replacement panels would garner you 15.3/13 = ~ 17.7% more PV production for the same area.

    Good luck with the wind. Be careful though -- it is damned near impossible to predict production from residential setups. Lots of horror stories of production < 10% of expected.
     
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  4. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    These 270 watt panels are rated at 16.10%.

    The major regional distributor where I obtained them carries a series from 240 to 270W in 5 watt increments. (The wafers are sorted by efficiency before final assembly.) Local installers appeared to have a several month backlog, extending out past the June 30 expiration of this state's small solar system sales tax waiver. Using an installer's starter package description as a parts guide, I found these modules online for under $0.90/watt, while its lower power siblings were running about $1.40/watt. That was about 10 pm one night, and I dithered for hours trying to figure why this too-good-to-be-true price was there. No clue. Suddenly at about 2 am, the price on the specific item page climbed back in line with the rest. But the lower price still showed on an index page, and in my earlier 'Shopping Cart' selection. I bit, and it processed at the lower price, though sales tax was computed at the higher price. (I'll need to file for the sales tax refund after showing that the system qualifies.) Expecting to get a call apologizing for an error, instead the delivery company called asking if I could unload the pallet myself, or if they'd need to send a truck with a pallet jack. The index page retained the low price for several more days, but there was no way to get that price into the shopping cart again.

    Today's price is $1.37/watt.
     
  5. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Awesome, Fuzzy. By far the best deal I have ever heard of for quality panels.
    Paying $1.4/watt for a panel that is going to last 25+ years and likely have a manufacturer around to warranty it is a damned good deal too.

    I think about it this way:
    $1.4/watt for quality
    $0.8/watt for unknown quality

    30-40% tax credit
    -> known quality costs 36 - 42 cents a watt. That is about one - two years of production, or about a 10% additional system cost.

    ----
    Yep, 16.1% efficiency for your panels.
    I mentioned the arithmetic to Wieckert mostly to hilite the relationship between watt STC, module size, and efficiency. It is quite convenient that STC radiation is 1000 watts per square meter :)
     
  6. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    One thing about 20+yr warranties - you better darn well make sure it's from a company that's been around for a long long time. Lots of PV manufacturers are in the "fly-by-night" category ... kind of like roofing companies. The warranty won't be worth pooh if the company goes away. We paid top dollar for our 18.75% efficiency panels - not just because of their high efficiency - but because the manufacturer (sun power) has been around for a long time. No Solyndra type companies for us ;) .
    Have you ever tried (w/out PV) to burn less than 600kWh's in a month? ... especially during a hot So Cal summer? Now THAT's funny. Might as well forget it. Run a fridge, a couple lights & a few hours of TV and you're already into Tier 3 by the 2nd week of the month. They're designed to get you up to top tier in no time at all.
    Btw ... aren't these called Tiers? ... as opposed to rates (costs per tier)? I posted examples of SCE rates (up to SCE's tier 5) on the 1st page ... around post # 10/11 I believe.
    .
     
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Yep, my point exactly.

    I'm a bit confused though, is sunPower and solarWorld the same ?

    As for Solyndra, they are a victim of Chinese PV dumping. Europe has it's own long list of victims too.
     
  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Don't know about solarWorld ... but I know they own 'SunnyBoy" ... makers of inverters and more.
     
  9. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    German, maybe ?

    But then this website says their PV manufacturing plant is outside Portland OR. Still confused, although I think it fair to say that panels from either are a good choice.
     
  10. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    While Tuesday did set my daily production record so far, 8.99 kWh, it didn't produce an honest net zero day. While the first morning reading (at irregular times) was virtually identical for four consecutive days, the regular evening reading kept climbing.

    But today we finally achieved a true 'net zero' day, when the meter read 3.5kWh less than at the same time yesterday. Much of the difference was due to the heat pump water heater not running at all during that 24 hours, having just finished a heat cycle at that time yesterday, while not starting today until a bit afterwards. But its heat cycle typically takes only 2 to 2.5 kWh, so I'm calling it good.
     
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  11. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Well, I'm envious that you have reduced load so far that you even could get (annual?) net-zero out of my system. While this house will do it on some of the most favorable days, I'll be extremely happy to reach even 20% over the whole year.

    Of course, the situations aren't very comparable. My house is all-electric, in a mediocre PV location, with utility service that already claims to be carbon neutral. (The regional electric generation includes some coal, but bookkeeping sleight-of-hand allows public utilities can shove it off on the private utilities.) I believe your house has replaced electric heating appliances with natural gas, and is in a location that could wring considerably more energy out of a given PV size.

    Now I'm wondering about upgrading to 4.6kW PV / 3.6kW AC this summer, not wait until next year. That would max out the new AC branch circuit without any modification, just extend the rails and stack on more inverters and panels. While it will be slightly more expensive per slot because that original panel deal is no longer available, I can get the other parts a bit cheaper this time, and all the overhead is done. And components will be free of sales tax for several more weeks. But the summer activity calendar will seriously interfere with beating sales tax waiver ending this month.
     
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Hard to know how PV prices are going to move over the next 12 months. Seems to me at least as likely they will go up as stay the same or go down.

    I've pretty much given up on the idea of PV at home, but I'm hopeful that solar collectives will come to my neck of the world in the not too distant future. I know the topic is on the PUC agenda.
     
  13. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    I don't think that they are so much "designed" to get you into the top tier in no time. It is more that they (PUC?) consider the first tier as a livable baseline. And it is. Then a small tier above that if you go over (this is 30% more). If you use a lot you go into the 3rd tier.

    I am well under baseline in a 2800+ sq ft house. I use 250-300 kwh/month now...12 years ago it was 600-750 kwh/month (even 900 sometimes). The key is I have no A/C (but didn't 12 years ago either)...I have a nice shade tree, but also insulated drapes and other window coverings.
    I check and measure power usage on everything...and I slowly replace appliances with Energy Star over the years, put in CFLs and other more efficient lighting, etc. Just got a few LEDs and will get more in years ahead. I still have a few big inefficiencies (Tivo uses 40w continuously...but I put it on a timer when I got the PIP; non-EnergyStar 57" TV, 16 yr old fridge). But I have gas for heat, HW, and clothes dryer.

    Mike
     
  14. CharlesH

    CharlesH CA HOV Decal #5 on former PiP

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    Get a newer TiVo. The Series 4 models only use 25W, per my Kill-a-watt, vs. 40W for an older Series 3. :)
     
  15. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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  16. wick1ert

    wick1ert Senior Member

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    I'm with you on the all-electric house. I do have a pellet stove downstairs and an oil furnace for back up heat, with heat pump as the primary heat. I get about 50% over the year of my usage.

    If you can afford to upgrade to the 4.6kw, I say do it. Even if you produce a little extra, you'll be all set for a PHEV/BEV someday ;)
     
  17. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    Not a chance. I've told Tivo numerous times (I'm in a monthly survey group) that it is ridiculous that they can't design it to use >1 watt when not recording. I'll buy again when I get a 1 watt version.

    <rant>
    It is silly to be constantly recording the 30 min buffer when "off" just in case you turn it on. I've used this feature maybe twice in 10 years. I want to be able to disable this "feature" and have it use >1 watt when not recording and not on. Since 95% of what I want to watch is on during a ~6 hr window I have a digital timer set that shuts it off except these times. Once or twice a month when I want to record outside this time I either change the timer of force it on for a day. This saves ~75% of the 350 kwh it uses in a year. This is more than a monthly bill for me. It is enough to drive 1700 miles. So my "savings" is 1300 miles!

    Mike
     
  18. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Don't you mean <1 (less than 1) watt?
    Yes, that is absurd. Numerous full size kitchen refrigerator-freezers use less than that.

    Even the newer 25W version (219kWh/year) is still a pig.
     
  19. CharlesH

    CharlesH CA HOV Decal #5 on former PiP

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    I guess it depends on what you want. I value my TiVo picking up suggestions at random time that occasionally are interesting and worth adding to the explicit record list. It's worth 18kwh/month for about $3.60 at the rates I pay. To each their own.
     
  20. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    Oops...typo
     
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