Electric Rates (where you live)

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by markabele, May 18, 2013.

  1. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,303
    1,657
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    It could decide what to record in 5 min for the next 24 hours, then sleep and wakeup just to record what you asked for or what it picked. It could even wake up at 58 past the hour, decide if there is anything to record and then go back to sleep if not. In any case it could easily save half the power it uses.

    I bet that most TIVO users have no idea that the product uses more dollars in electricity than the unit costs, for most people.

    Mike
     
    fuzzy1 likes this.
  2. SteveWlf

    SteveWlf Old-on-Hold

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    262
    32
    0
    Location:
    Montesano, WA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    II
    With all due respect. I just wanted to jump in here and post the On Topic of electric rates.

    I am in Washington state and 100% of our power comes from the Bonneville Power Administration (BPA), claiming to be all hydro electric. (However, they are not allowed to claim that as "Renewable" energy for some reason. Maybe because of the disputes over the supposed effect of the dams on the ecology.)

    Anyway, our electric rates in my area of western WA is not currently tiered by peak or off peak hrs. but the first 360 kWh is per $0.0116, then it is $0.807 per kWh.

    Since I just installed a home charging station, I called the local PUD to find out about special programs or considerations for EV charging customers. I just happen talk to a very forward looking/positive person. They couldn't offer any rebate on the installation, like the sometimes do when a customer upgrades heating and appliences . However, we did discuss the prospects of a future change that would allow for a special rate tier for EV charging customers who charge during the off -peak hours. He did agree that their remote meter reading system already has that ability. They have considered this recently for the benefit of customers who upgrade home heating equipment and might be able to include the EVers.

    I realize that my home charging isn't a big expense but if something like this would encourage a larger number of drivers to cross over to EV, that would help us all in the end.

    My experience and opinion FWIW

    Steve
     
  3. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    13,729
    7,327
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    A few clarifications:

    * Many utilities in Washington State have some of their own plants, so don't get 100% of their energy from BPA.

    * BPA is not 100% hydro: Measuring the carbon content of BPA’s power supply

    * Montesano appears to be served by the Gray's Harbor PUD. Here is its 2010 fuel mix report. Its 2011 mix had a lot more hydro, less nuclear and coal, due to BPA's variability.

    * "Renewable" is defined by a statewide voter initiative a few years back, and excludes the old big hydro sources. Yes, the environmental impacts of those facilities is a big factor.
     
    SteveWlf likes this.
  4. SteveWlf

    SteveWlf Old-on-Hold

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    262
    32
    0
    Location:
    Montesano, WA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Thanks for the Clearification and I should have dug up the paper that is usually inserted in my monthly bill. It does, in there way, tell me something similar to the referenced links you have provided.

    BTW: I notice that the second link is a report, dated 2011 might be dated or in error. I say this because it just occurs to me that there has been natural gas generating plant operating at the old abandon nuke site for a couple years. Can't say it is "out of sight out of mind". I can see it from my window. The waste of that otherwise abandon site is still sicken to me, not because I'm pro-nuke (nuetral on that point, being retire Navy) but because of the wasted $..

    Steve
     
  5. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,065
    1,753
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    It's really 1 cent per kWh? Or is it 11.6 cents?
     
  6. SteveWlf

    SteveWlf Old-on-Hold

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    262
    32
    0
    Location:
    Montesano, WA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    II
    The first rate for the first 360 kwh is correct but the second rate should have been $0.0807 kWh there after. Sorry I left out a ".0" and it is too late to edit it now.

    Thanks for the "gotcha call"!
    Steve
     
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,517
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    Wow.
    What other fees do you end up paying ? I'm finding it hard to believe a typical bill is some $20 LOL
     
  8. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,517
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    1 cent kWh was the good old days. Inflation has bumped it up to 1.16 cents a kWh. :(
     
  9. SteveWlf

    SteveWlf Old-on-Hold

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    262
    32
    0
    Location:
    Montesano, WA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Here is a copy of my most recent bill. Bare in mind that this is low heating season and later this summer I might use a little AC. Check out the other fees.

    Even the winter heating goes up to about $200/mo and that is with half my heat from wood pellet stove and half from heat pump.

    Yes, I'm lucky to be on this PacNW power grid but still wish I had natural gas and the pipe line is only a mile away. The price of electric keeps all the community from considering natural gas as an alternative.

    Steve
    PUD bill001.jpg
     
    SageBrush likes this.
  10. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,517
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    Well, between the hefty fixed charge, and then the low (8 cents a kWh) charge for high consumption, conservation is certainly not encouraged.

    Btw Steve, the best way to hide private data on a scanned document is to open the scan in a graphics program (any will do) and 'paint' over the private text.
     
  11. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    13,729
    7,327
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    The details show that the $0.0016/kWh for the low tier isn't as nice as it first appears, thanks to the $37.56/month base service fee. Combine them, with the taxes, and that first tier ends up costing at least $0.123/kwh if the whole tier is used. And more per-kwh if fewer kWh are consumed.
    Also note that the service address is still displayed. Consider editing that out before the edit deadline strikes.
     
  12. chesleyn

    chesleyn Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    596
    157
    0
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
  13. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,517
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    From their methods pdf:
    Now, I don't know about you, but my petrol car does not get 28.2 mi/gal.
     
  14. abistro

    abistro Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    22
    5
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Okay, please correct me if I'm wrong but in my situation it costs approximately the same using a PIP or regular Prius, quick analysis below.

    My last electric bill comes out to be $119.36 for 905 kWh used, which means I'm paying around 13.19 cent per kWh. This includes all the electric delivery services, taxes, and the actual usage with the assumption that the bill will scale evenly because everything is factored by the actual usage of 905kWh.

    Let's assume that on average the PIP gets 11 miles of EV range per 4.4 kWh charge. It'll cost 58 cents to go 11 miles yielding 5.3 cents/mile cost.

    Now in terms of gas usage, I get approximately 55 miles/gallon at $3.34/gallon. This yields 6.1 cents/miles.

    5.3 cent/mile using PIP vs. 6.1 cents/miles using regular Prius for the first 11 miles only. Remember, in order to do a good comparison, we have to compare apples to apples, hence 11 miles EV range vs 11 miles regular Prius range. After the PIP is out of EV, the cost/mile is the same as a regular Prius.

    So doing the calculation from the department of energy which puts the cost of electric cars 3x less than gas... is incorrect in my case. Obviously, gasoline prices are much more elastic than electric prices.

    This is just my rant and what drove me to purchase a regular Prius saving 7k over the PIP.
     
  15. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,303
    1,657
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    This is where you've gone wrong. Yes, the battery capacity is 4.4 kwh. But the software controls you to a range of about 20-80% of the capacity. I've never charged more than 3 kwh (measuring from the wall) And usually it is only about 2.6 - 2.8 kwh...from the wall. Toyota says it is 2.7 kwh from the battery.

    So scale your numbers and recalculate.

    Mike
     
  16. RBooker

    RBooker Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2012
    154
    56
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    The calculation is a bit more complex than you might expect. First you only need 3.3 kWh to fully charge the battery. The software does not allow you to fully charge or discharge the battery. The EPA uses their mileage estimates to compute the cost of fuel. Your situation might be different since your real world numbers will depend on your typical route (flat, hills, short or long commute) and driving style. You should also estimate the number of miles you expect to drive using electricity (EV) and gas (HV) the EV/HV ratio. The EV/HV ratio is strongly influenced by the number of times you charge your battery per miles driven.

    I carried out a detailed analysis if my situation to help me decide which PHEV/EV would work for me. My target fuel efficiency was 80 mpg. Based on the info available I was certain all the options would work. Most of my trips are 15 miles or less although I do have to deal with steep hills and cold winters. I expected to charge at least once a day week days twice on weekends. I assumed my EV/HV ratio would be 50%. I purchased the PIP based on total cost of ownership after taking into consideration all discounts incentives and tax credits. I have ~2900 miles on my PIP and I am averaging 177 mpg. My lifetime EV/HV ratio is 77% and a surprising 93% for the last 300 miles.
    I think the simplest way to approach is to estimate the EV/HV ratio and energy content of both fuels. A gallon of gas is equivalent to 33.7 kWh round this number up to 34 kWh to account for charging loss. Overall, I am averaging 118 miles per 34 kWh or 28.81 kWh per 100 miles versus 1.82 gallons per 100 miles in your Prius. At today's prices you will pay $6.6 for gas ($3.63) and for $3.75 for electricity ($0.13) to travel a 100 miles. All you have to do is estimate your miles driven per year and your expected EV/HV ratio is 50% and you drive 15,000 miles per year you would cost you $775 to buy fuel for the PIP and you can estimate your savings.
     
  17. mmmodem

    mmmodem Taste Tester

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2011
    2,626
    1,578
    0
    Location:
    Milpitas, CA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    In my opinion, I think your calculations are correct. Having owned a PiP for the past 8 months, I should know that calculating electric rates to the dot perfection is an exercise in futility. Getting more precise with your numbers don't make your calculations any more accurate. Why?

    Because of tiered pricing if your rates are as such. EV use at slow speeds subsidizes fuel economy of HV mode. Those 11 miles you use in EV might have been lower in hybrid mode. In other words, I get 60+ mpg when I run out of EV. I'd probably get 55 mpg if it were a regular Prius. Charging loss with L1 or L2 is different. Can you charge at work? There's too many factors muddyin the water.

    You came to the pretty much the same conclusion as me. Cost savings on the PiP is "almost nothing" at our electric rates. So why did I buy a PiP? Well, besides the solo HOV access, heavy incentives brought the price of the car to just a little over a Prius Three. That $7000 delta is a few hundred $ right now. You'll get that back at resale because there's no reason a PiP used would cost less than a Three. I start saving "almost nothing" immediately.
     
  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,517
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    One error has been corrected -- you charge less than 4.4 kwh for 11 miles at this time.

    However, you will find that if you live in a winter climate the kwh/mile increases a LOT to heat the cabin.

    All in all, electric miles are cheaper than petrol but not by much, at least for most owners.
     
  19. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,303
    1,657
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    For me, electric is about 10* cents/kwh (or zero at work). I get 180 wh/mile (before losses...so about 200 wh/mile with losses), which makes it 2 cents/mile. Gas costs about $3.80/gal in my area...so at 55 mpg, that is 6.9 cents/mile. If gas was $3.00, then it would be 5.5 cents/mile...still not close. If electricity was 20 cents/kwh it would be 4 cents/mile...gas still losing. Electric rates would need to be about 30 cents/kwh and gas $3.30 to be break even.

    (* I get ~2 cents discount on PG&E rates due to summer Smart rate...in winter it goes up)

    I know there are others in CA that have high electric rates. My monthly consumption is well below the baseline of ~13 kwh/day so I am in the lowest tier, even with PIP charging.

    The national average cost per kwh is 10-11 cents, so it is not unusual that EV is about 1/3rd the cost of gas nationally.

    Mike
     
  20. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,517
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    Your math and analysis sounds right, but it is FAR from typical.
    Just look at the EPA--- around 350 Wh/mile from the wall in temperate weather, so figure around 400 Wh/mile year-round in 4 season climates. Marginal electricity costs* of 10 - 15 cents / kWh work out to 4 - 6 cents a mile.

    Again using EPA of 50 mpg for petrol, and taking a range of $3.3 - 3.63/gallon, the petrol cost is 6.6 - 7.26 cents / mile.

    This ain't rocket science.

    By the way, abistro is missing the elephant in the room (which you are obviously aware of): his monthly electric consumption is sky high. If a PiP leads him down the path of energy conservation at home it will pay off big time; first and foremost by getting him out of high(er) tier pricing.

    My electric utility in New Mexico also has tiered pricing, although from what I read no where near as drastic as CA. Since I am also in the low tier pricing of 11 cents/kWh, my monthly bill excluding the $5 fixed charges is under $11 a month. Worrying over whether the PiP is saving or costing 10 or maybe 20 cents a day in direct fuel charges is SO besides the point when the electric bill starts out over $100.

    *If OP is in California, then his calculation of total_cost/total_kWh to figure out an average kWh cost may be quite misleading in estimating how much he pays to charge a PiP since a lot (all?) of that state uses tier pricing. He will have to look at his bill, but I will not be at all surprised to learn that he is paying $20 - $30 for that extra ~ 100 kWh (going from 900-> 1000 kWh a month.)
     
Loading...