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Electrical energy past and future

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, May 10, 2017.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Y’all know that electrical-energy supply figures largely in recent human activity. Here is my perspective.

    In 2010 global electrical was about 330 watts per person. Does not mean that each one had 3, 100-watt bulbs burning, instead that all electricity use summed to that. It was about 67% fossil-C, 16% hydro, 13% nuclear, and 3% all other renewables.

    Consider year 2050, with more people and an aspirational goal to increase electricity per person to 550 watts. If one extrapolates electricity sources from recent trends we would actually get there. Sounds good.

    But here is a possible problem. That path would double fossil-CO2 emission, at take the atmosphere to about 600 ppm CO2. Presently we are above 400 ppm which was never happened before during human life on earth. Direct and indirect effects of such higher levels are difficult to anticipate and remain very controversial.

    Reducing fossil-CO2 emissions to zero over this time scale is absurd and I don’t consider that. I do consider holding them at current levels. Taking 550 watts as a goal, how could renewable-E growth provide the difference? It is easy to calculate that a 17% growth rate per year would be required.

    That growth rate looks achievable from 2010 to 2016 where both wind and photovoltaic grew much faster. But caution is required. Recent growth rates of renewable-E start from near zero, and this inflates rate-bigness.

    We can return to fossil-E history and see that through its mature phase grew at 2% per year. This was with (perhaps lavish) financial subsidies. It would take ‘unusual’ financial policies to grow renewable-E more rapidly to 2050.

    There are a range of futures to consider. One is that renewable-E will grow fast. Many people hope for that, but it would be novel. Another is that fossil-E will continue to grow (at a slower rate) and 2050 will have about 500 ppm and we would deal with that. Another is that energy efficiency will be improved, and 330-ish watts per person suffices for global economic growth. We all want that growth, right? People selling things to each other.

    Seriously, there are only 2 futures to hope for: 1. Everybody does better. 2. Only rich people do better. These are not entirely disconnected.

    Besides whatever +CO2 might do, there are two problems with expanding fossil-E. Burning -> air quality -> human health. Steam as working fluid makes water less available for agriculture; important wherever water is not available in excess.

    There will be a world in 2050; as yet undefined by our current decisions. Does not matter at all at all, how I might want that world to be. Matters a lot, what everyone else wants.
     
  2. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    You forgot efficiency. China is already on the way to electricity for the people. Big wild cards are india and indonesia that may start using a lot more, and in particularly india's case a better grid needs to be built and its likely to be powered mainly by coal or nuclear. If India starts using as much as china and builds most of it from coal its a problem. My guess is china will attempt to reduce the percentage of coal used today in 2050 simply because when unhealthy air pollution is considered coal becomes more expensive than some alternatives like fracking and wind. I would think europe and North America would be more efficient by 2050 and less coal intense, reducing their per capita consumption and per capita ghg. How much this compares to increases in asia and africa, I do not know.

    Not sure what units the 330 watts per person are in. I'm more used to kwh/year per capita which is a much higher number.
     
  3. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what isn't clear there. Isn't 330 W/person the same as 2891 kWh/year per capita?

    Or is there some question about peak installed capacity vs average consumption?
     
    #3 fuzzy1, May 11, 2017
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Calculations based on 365.25 days per year and 24 hrs per day.

    I only mentioned efficiency in one sentence. How to 'scope' energy efficiency into my simple-minded framework? Very open to suggestions, or for that matter, making the framework more complicated.

    There is a wiki page that lists countries in these (watt/head) units. There global average (in 2012?) was 339. a few others:

    China 492
    USA 1378
    EU 615
    UK 547
    India 87
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    will using the same or less electricity stunt economic growth?
     
  6. RobH

    RobH Senior Member

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    Any similar data on California? They keep telling us how well we're doing - are we?
     
  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    In US recently there has been economic growth and flat energy overall. Not sure if electrical production has also been flat. That info must be available.

    Seems likely to be that this could happen in any 'high watt/head' country. Much further down the list? Need to delve into local factors.

    My point here is that global electricity is on a growth path to looks good (to me). To stay on it would lead to much higher CO2 (much evidence that would cause problems). Or, to grow renewables at a multi-decadal rate that may be unrealistic. Energy efficiency would certainly help (and in many cases is pure cost saving), but unclear how workable that is in countries with very little electricity now.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    how does the switch from coal to ng play into the co2 levels?
     
  9. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Coal vs. NG. The most extreme comparison indicates half CO2 per energy produced - I was not expecting it to be so different.

    More subtle is whether the NG just spins turbine. Or if that waste heat also is used in 'combined cycle'. Latter is more efficient but consumes water.

    Water is a second-order issue for this discussion. In places where energy generation competes with agriculture, it would seem sensible to give preference to generation schemes that don't consume water. If you have water available in excess, then it is a marvelous working fluid.
     
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Yes, w/person looks like a peak number, but is too low to be one. I guess average per hour would clarify, or kwh/year etc has all units.

    In the US most new power is natural gas and wind. Natural gas can cycle with wind and solar, and demand, while coal becomes less efficient at lower levels, and more polluting at high utilization.

    20% wind, 80% natural gas ccgt might produces only 25% of the ghg and even less unhealthy pollutants compared to a group of 30+ year old coal plants. An old natural gas steam plant will produce about half the ghg of an old coal plant.
     
  11. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Perhaps obviously, I'd want this discussion to lead us towards fulfilling human needs for energy/water/food/OK climate/adequate environmental aspects in a very broad sense.

    One can use a time-slice to suggest that energy requirements can be very nicely handled through 2050 mostly by fossil-energy growth. But that neglects other matters. Or, if we aspire to hold fossil-energy flat, it is hard to anticipate enough renewable-E growth to fill requirements.

    It is my point (stated too many times here) that we want (or aspire towards) having 9 billion people doing better than now in 2050. Unless some new energy source pops up, we'll do it with sources we are using now, with their water and CO2 and climate implications.

    Best regional energy mixes will be strongly influenced by available water - how could they not be?

    Best global energy mixes may be influenced by CO2/climate but I must say earth is not going to get all that much hotter by 2050. It is but one factor to consider among several.

    In my opinion we miss the point by narrowly arguing CO2/climate/2050. It would seem better to start from how to we want Earth 2050 to be? As that may differ from now, what political/economic nudges would help?

    Burning a lot of fossil carbon has obviously been a great help to humanity and it is now our largest money industry. This highlights a difficulty in finding an optimal future path but does not prevent finding. Just promote a desired path, get people to agree on that and go from there.

    No reason at all to suffer from misunderstanding watt hours per year - everybody knows how how many hours there are in a year.
     
  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    US is now about 1380 watts per person. There is no effing way (absent political misadventure :eek:) to mess that up by 2050. Much of the N. hemisphere is also in good shape. One might focus attention on countries with low energy supply now, and with anticipated population growth.

    And also challenged on food and water supply. If you look at such places as somebody else's problem I have no time for you because there is nobody else. Rather, it seems reasonable for high-energy, high-water and high-science countries to lead.

    Lead how? Your optimistic reporter says to offer options along energy/water/food gradients, and let affected folks choose whatever they like. In this bear in mind that growing economies will buy your blue jeans and handbags and whatever else you have on offer. So, you want them to do well, eh? Alternatively, they will be still stuck in famine and war. Downside is a dragging need for 'foreign assistance'. Upside is selling weapons thereto. I have no ability to sort that out. But I do express my opinion attempting to do the 20th century again is less than what we might aspire to.
     
  13. bisco

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    interestingly, around here anyway, in times like these, home construction not only increases in numbers, but also in size. many 2000 square foot homes are being torn down and 5000' being put up. more efficient per square foot though.
     
  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Where I come from, 'watts' has the same units as 'kwh/year', they are just scaled different (by 31.5e6 seconds/year). I cringe at things like average watts per hour or per day.
     
  15. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Yes and Yes. The EIA has nice profiles and data sets: California - State Energy Profile Overview - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
    • In 2014, California’s per capita energy consumption ranked 49th in the nation; the state's low use of energy was due in part to its mild climate and its energy efficiency programs.
    For comparison, in 2014 California used 196 million BTU per capita compared to Louisiana (worst) at 921.

    We also know California uses at least 36.5% non-fossil fuels for electricity generation (probably several percent more, but unable to calculate with some unknown sourced imports) and it grows substantially each year.
    Total System Electric Generation

    Count me as more optimistic when it comes to the potential of developing nations to quickly use a high mix of renewables.

    Most of these countries have poor electrical grid infrastructure. That helps renewables like solar, which is not only rapidly becoming more price competitive, but is also a much better solution in these cases where the lack of a robust electrical grid prevents one from easily plugging into fossil sources. Such is a commonplace scenario in many African countries.

    If battery costs continue to fall at similar rates to smooth out the variable production of renewable electricity, renewables could keep up on their rapid growth for years to come. Like most things, these technologies first appear in advanced economies. Places like California as starting to bring large scale batteries online.
     
    RobH and bisco like this.
  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  17. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    If you are expecting to power vehicles with electricity in 2050 you may need to reevaluate your electrical consumption.
    Replacing 170 billion+++ gallons of FF with wind mills and solar isnt too likely.
     
  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Sure give me 10,000 engineers, 1000 scientists, and 200 mathematicians and in a year I'll give you a great plan. Of course it will not be implemented because governments will not like my plan, even if it is much better for their citizens than their plan ;-) So I only answered what I thought might happen, given the worlds state.
    No matter what you do, you likely have less fossil fuel per capita in north america, and more in asia and Africa, unless we have some pretty spectacular wars. Price will do that in north america, and desire in asia and Africa. 2050 is only 33 years away.

    We don't need anything new, we need to change costs of lower carbon options vis a vis coal. Tesla's solar roof idea may help do that for distributed solar, but that tech will only be affordable for new homes or ones that are replacing roofs ;-) In other words 2050 is too soon for penetration. Wind is the easiest, but that requires government investment in grid infrastructure and cycling power. In countries without cheap natural gas, cycling power is much more expensive, but fracking may help those countries. Nuclear, could have big cost breakthroughs, but 2050, again too soon.
    really just needed to state average use, 24 hours a day, all year with it. I know. I know. We texans with our huge variation in demand seem to look much more at peak use, and peak hours, so that average consumption doesn't mean much here, when it comes to building infrastructure. If you build more wind, you either need to shift people's electrical use to night in the winter, or you need to shut down coal, and if you shut down coal, you need enough cycling power to cover the peak. I know some places like california are much more moderate in climate, and low in manufacturing, so demand does not fluctuation. I expect heavy fluctuation in 2050 in India, and that is a place that likely will have the most fossil growth.[/quote][/QUOTE]

    I am guessing there will be a lot more plug-in vehicles in 2050. Most of these in the US and China ;-) In both places simply pushing economically by changing rates, should push vehicles to mainly use the grid's power sources. That means they likely will be using wind, coal, natural gas and nuclear at that time. Shifting from oil to those sources should be less expensive in terms of fuel, but may be more expensive in terms of depreciation of vehicle. This definitely requires a big grid build out in both nations.
     
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Growth of cars as additional electrical appliances will become important as the fleet expands. Seems like a reasonable question so I gave it a shot.

    Nissan Leaf may/may not be ideal example. It take 35 kwh for 100 miles travel. For 15,000 miles driven per year it works out to be a 600 watt appliance.

    With a very large electric vehicle fleet, included batteries may offer some of that grid storage which will become more necessary. That is, if they are parked and plugged in at helpful times.
     
  20. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    When considering the potential for replacement of internal combustion vehicles with electric by 2050, there is some historical precedent. In the U.S., in 1910 household motor vehicle registrations were only 2.3%. But by 1930 this was already 89.8%.

    It mostly comes down to costs, conveniences, and incentives.

    The large percent of current and new internal combustion vehicles could be retired in fewer than 20 years.