1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Energy Wasted By Average Driver

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by markabele, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    I was wondering if people on here smarter than I am might be able to help me quantify a rough idea of how much energy is wasted when an idiot driver speeds up to a red light only to slam on their brakes. I would then like to be able to use this number for illustration purposes to show them, for example, how long that wasted energy could power a washing machine. Could anyone help me with this endeavor please?
     
  2. ksstathead

    ksstathead Active Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2007
    1,244
    243
    0
    Location:
    Kansas
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Cannot supply what you wanted, but a useful analogy is to refer folks to 35 mph crash tests. The utter destruction of those cars is the energy thrown away using friction brakes.
     
  3. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,533
    4,063
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    That all depends on the weight, efficiency, and speed of the car. The kinetic energy in the car is 1/2mv*v. If they slam on the brakes, most of this energy is used to create heat. Anouther way to look at it is supplying this energy is an inefficient engine, so we can divide by engine efficiency to speed add this energy to the car. I also don't know the amount of power in a washing machine, but the energy used is fairly straight forward physics.

    For a car around the weight of the camry I would think the energy wasted would be about
    energy = 2000 kg * ((speedFast x speedFast) - (speedSlow x speedSlow))

    The prius would be a lower number because of more efficient engine to accelerate and recaptured energy in braking.
     
  4. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,171
    4,163
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    As already stated, there are many variables, so it is difficult to quantify.
    An example of brake wear may work just as well. People who tend to speed up to stoplights and then slam on the brakes will need to replace their brakes far more often. I have heard of Prius drivers who didn't need to replace their brakes for 100,000 miles.
     
  5. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    4,539
    1,433
    9
    Location:
    Northern California
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    I could but I won't, too many people are already convinced that Prius owners are a bunch of self-righteous twits. No need to add to that.
     
    ETC(SS) likes this.
  6. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Sounds like you got the self-righteous part right.
     
  7. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,314
    3,588
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Let's just do it the simple way; assume average car gets 25 MPG and could get 27 MPG if they drove more carefully. Lets assume 15000 miles per year. So we get 44.4 gaso gals per year wasted, assuming the guy is not in a Prius.

    Now if we want to play How to Lie with Statistics, the US EPA uses a value of 33.7 Kwhr per gallon of gasoline. That gives us about 1500 Kwhr wasted elec. According to Google, a washing machine uses 0.25 kwhr per load, so thats 6000 loads of wash!

    What's wrong here is that power plants average closer to 30-40% efficent so 6000/3 = 2000 loads, still impressive!
     
  8. Jason dinAlt

    Jason dinAlt Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    183
    61
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    OTOH, why do you want to convince them that it would be more efficient to run the red light?
     
  9. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Not a bad idea. I would probably lower that average to more like 20 or 21 if you are including pickups and the way people really drive (lower than EPA). You could probably then assume an increase to around 24 or 25 if people tried to drive smart. Assuming 15000 miles still that would be about 150 gallons or $600 at $4 gas. That may seem extreme but you've seen people out there. Most people are really horrid drivers as far as FE is concerned.
     
  10. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    ???
     
  11. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,314
    3,588
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Pls note I added to the orig post
     
  12. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    4,884
    976
    0
    Location:
    earth
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Putting a scan gauge in my Subaru, and driving carefully, allows me to get ~10% better mileage, but I drive pretty conservatively anyway. I think for the average daily urban driver might save 15% if they learned how to drive. That translates to over $.50/gal at today's prices.

    People piss an moan about a few cents a gallon, but don't realize they could save way more if they just drove more efficiently. Move from the Subaru to the Prius, and it translates to nearly a$2/gallon effective fuel price savings!

    Icarus
     
    markabele likes this.
  13. Mr Incredible

    Mr Incredible Chance favors the prepared mind.

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2008
    955
    506
    0
    Location:
    Neb
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    Four
    Throw that $600 idea at them and let them chew on it a while. Maybe they'll be interested, maybe they won't.

    No need to beat them over the head with it, though. Born again converts and their preaching are a drag no matter what flag they fly.
     
    xs650 likes this.
  14. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Love your post but I think it's more like 20%+ that bad drivers could improve. Way too many drivers speed up to red lights. That hurts fuel economy way more than anything else.
     
  15. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,314
    3,588
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    OK lets say the guy steps on it 1/3-mile @ 10 MPG when he could have coasted.
    So the net loss is .033 gal x $4/gal = 13.2 cents lost could buy 1 kwhr elec to do 4 wash loads instead, assuming 0.25 kwhr per wash load.
     
  16. Mr Incredible

    Mr Incredible Chance favors the prepared mind.

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2008
    955
    506
    0
    Location:
    Neb
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    Four
    I get 10mpg in the truck no matter how delicately I drive. There' no improving it, it's the way it is.

    If I try real hard I can improve the Camaro from 20 to maybe 21.5

    My old CRX varied from 35 to 41.

    Not all vehicles are capable. Not all drivers are retrainable.

    One persons stupid driver is another persons "maximizing available time." One light challenged and beat is another minute or two gained at the job site or coffee table. Multiply that times wins per year and the hard working landscaper may challenge that $600.

    A lot simply depends on the way you look at the world...and oil.
     
  17. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    4,519
    390
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    The energy to brake, should be roughly the same energy expended to reach top speed ,without interruption ,before braking .
     
  18. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    So you are saying you will get the same gas mileage whether you time all lights perfect with some pulse and coasting compared to if you sped up to every light and had to slam on your brakes then idle there for a little bit?

    Plus there are tons of situations where driving hard up to lights won't get you somewhere any faster.
     
  19. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,530
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    You may be missing 10% in the decimal, but I'm not surprised to hear your experience. I bet the truck engine has horrible thermal efficiency when you feather the go pedal.

    I think a manual tranny and a clued-in driver could do a lot better with a pulse and coast routine.
     
  20. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    I agree. Feathering the gas is not the way to get the best FE in a lot of ICE only vehicles.