Enough of George W's War

i would love to stay up and continue this debate. some very valid points were presented along with some mindless psychobabble. i guess if people in the middle east were able to enter such discourse without the threat of torture or death it might be different there too.

i hope that whatever side you are on we can agree that democracy benefits all those under its umbrella - and that the further democracy spreads, the threat of war diminishes.

it is like the 1930's in a way - who would have thought we could democratise japan and germany at the same time and that they would never again wage war against there neighbors. imagine if we pre-empted hitler in the 1930's - image if he had developed wmd's in the space of time we let him gather strength...

 

I was wondering what psychobabble you were referring to, but I read the rest of your post and now I know that you were simply talking about your own posts. I'm glad you clarified. You wouldn't want people to think your posts were for real.
Ohh and by the way, a word of wisdom, since I see you haven't been around too long, next time you demand answers from people and they respond to your questions, it would be fair and polite, that you would follow up on them. But since you did clarify that it was all just a psychobabble I think we can all forgive you this time.

 

and how do you envision the democracy to spread if we are supporting so many dictators?

 

So you know where I'm coming from:

Lived for 6 months in Egypt, in 1992. That's when insurgents were bombing buses in Cairo on a regular basis and a bus load of Greek tourists, mistaken for Israelies, were gunned down. The rebels were trying to disrupt the economy and bring Mubarak down.
Most folks I met were trying to get by, regular Joes, decent types raising their kids in okay-to-severe situations. They worked hard, many held two jobs and hell, yeah, they'd take any money the US govt. threw at them. They weren't stupid. The average Egyptian realized tourism was a gold mine and a stable political environment fostered economic growth. They prayed for peace, considered Israel a thorn, accepted and intermarried within sects of Islam, occasionally rioted and killed innocent Copts (the first Christians).
Had a great time; if you have money, you can create a marvelous life in a second or third world country. Learned to dive in the Red Sea, cook the local cuisine, toured beautiful mosques, learned enough Arabic to argue with cab drivers and bargain in the old markets. Incredible history and art in Egypt, difficult to find better anywhere in the world.

Surprise: Muslims are people too. The vast majority want peace and disapprove of militant behavior. And they have just as much right to live their own lives as you or I.

One of my cousin's kids is a Navy pilot. He dropped bombs and flew support for the invasion of Baghdad.
A brother-in-law is career Navy. He's a Master Chief, a medico. He was in the Gulf when the USS Cole was attacked, and was in the Gulf war. Dan supports Marines in the field. He's recently been to Indonesia and Peru. He won't say what he was doing there. Dan says I'm his boss, that all civilians are. I paid his salary, armed and trained him, sent him to war.
A nephew, a Major in the Army, was waiting in the sands outside Baghdad in the Spring of 2003. After Cheny directed our soldiers to shoot looters, I told Major Jason that if he gave orders to shoot unarmed civilians, I would disown him. (We still do that in our family - it's not pretty) If he went to prison for countermanding orders, I'd visit him in prison and tell him he'd done the right thing. He told me not to worry; he wasn't about to allow his men to shoot anyone outside the legal rules of engagement.

Some weeks BEFORE the invasion of Baghdad, I participated in a large (estimates ranged from "a few ten thousand" to 80,000) peace march in DC. I wasn't convinced Sadam still had WMDs and, even if he did, that they consituted a threat to the US. It wasn't time to invade. I wasn't ready to suppport an all-out war, the only kind, my opinion, to have.

We invaded, running past and leaving groups of Fedeyyin untouched. Flowers and cheers were expected, Saddam's army was disbanded and left unemployed. We still didn't have good intelligence, interpreters were in short supply, we had no plan to rebuild the nation.

I was told to support the war effort by shopping.

Now armed groups are jockeying for power in Iraq. The coming civil war ain't about religion, it's about surviving in a dire situation. And how? By joining a group that can, hopefully, protect you and your family. Then you pay the Devil whatever price it takes to be safe.

But the US can't leave simply up and leave. Not yet. Bush is right about that. Powel said if we broke it, we bought it. And we did. Blame Bush as much as you want but it's our faults the Iraqis are so screwed.

Our faults. You and me, we did it. We have the responsibility to clean up our mess.

I don't know if we can. It might be too late, we might not have the gumption to do it. But by all that's holy, we can't withdraw now. The Saudis, Iranians, Pakistanis and Syrians will scrabble to scoop up pieces of poor Iraq.

If my relatives have to go back in to help clean things up, so be it. I'll grit my teeth, wave goodbye, send care packages and pray there are no family funerals to attend.

We must admit, though, that this ain't regular warfare and it's past time to be smart about what we do in Iraq. What we're doing now isn't working

 

What dictators are we still supporting :blink:

Democracy is a tough thing to spread - considering there were none of them around a quarter millenium ago and now over half the planet is governed by one is not so bad. Maybe in another 100 years or so, we can further the process.

Spreading democracy is difficult - trying to empower the common man when he is under the yoke of oppression makes it that much more difficult. Globalization is helping, the internet is helping, and taking on dictatorships as we can and have to helps too.

Afghanistan is an example of democracy spreading to another 25 MILLION people who were heretofore oppressed. I think we will see Iran go democratic within our lifetimes. India is there - and our establishing a strategic relationship is a stroke of genius - another 1.4 BILLION humans free. Eastern Europe, now free from the yokes of Communism. Yes there are growing pains, but I would follow the people in each of these countries who continue to yearn for the future and are saying good riddence to the past.

 

Regretfully we support many, here are some, I certainly will omit a few unknowingly:

Than Shwe a brutal dictator with his cronies, our State Department very rarely confronts him, if anyone perhaps our media.
Islam Karimov another psychopathically driven dictator, fully recognized until closure of air-base leases.
King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, one of the most repressing regimes, you get caned for wrongly flicking your eyeballs during prayer by governmentally run religious police. Send you daughter to SA if you have one and see if she would love it.
Saparmurat Niyazov another example of tyranny.
Teodoro Obiang Nguema he has destroyed its population to object poverty, actually fully recognized by US State Dept. One of the worst examples of tyranny. Look what he did to Annabon, most polluted place in the world with 80% most toxic damping on the planet to the point of stunted growth of trees and life expectancy of 25!!! He has OIL and we succumbed to the notion of dichotomy.
Isayas Afewerki another example of shinning democracy.
Pervez Musharraf, he called us a lesser EVIL over former Taliban Regime in the speech to his own population! Great example of democracy!
Meles Zenawi fully recognized by State Department.

How can we send a clear message about spreading the democracy if you choose to support few, either you are against all or none. For these inconsistencies our credibility is at stake, unfortunately. There need to be a well defined position of ours in the world community; otherwise no-one will take us seriously. India is the biggest democracy but certainly has its own problems with sectarian violence that gets little attention. Try to get accreditation for Nagaland, Mizoram or Tripura and you will see a how democracy works in India!
It's easy to sugarcoat with a word "democracy". The road to a democracy is an ongoing struggle and very long process. The only way to reach it is by full transparencies; otherwise we fall into the trap of undemocratic avenues.

 

dbermanmd, I agree with here, but must note that we support Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, just to name a couple that are not democratic. But to those who support the Iraq war, I would like your response to this:

War is the most serious of human undertakings, and should not be entered into without unwavering, crystal clear purpose and overwhelming need. Because of the death, maiming, misery, destruction and financial cost, to do anything less is immoral. To do anything less diminishes us as humans. The war in Iraq does not pass that test, and never did. The purpose was changed to suit the circimstances, and the need was never clearly established. I will never support any war under those circimstances, and I will never support those who would wage such a war. It is disgraceful.

How, even under the rosiest of outcomes, is the war in Iraq going to diminish the threat of terrorism in the world? How does it impair OBL and al-Qaeda?. How does it impair the activities of Islamic extremeists that we know are currently living, training and plotting in Indonesia, Pakistan, Egypt, Morocco, Syria, England, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Spain, Germany, the US....? The terrorists have no border, wear no uniform, have no army, and cannot be defeated or even hindered by wars between nations (Afghanistan and the Taliban was IMO a notable and unique exception). We squander our resources and our will to fight, but accomplish nothing. We add fuel the the extremists fire, but accomplish nothing.
If the result is a less than rosy outcome, which now seems very likely, we probably create either a very unstable situation where terrorism will thrive (ala Afghanistan after the Soviet war), or we create an Islamic state that will have much in common with Iran. Why do you support such a pointless war, that was waged on such such a weak and wavering foundation? Why do you support the fool that lied to you to wage it? How can you justify such a position?

 

Thank you. The best thing I can do is refer you to an organization called scholars for 911 truth. It is at http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ These are not crackpots, but highly respected scientists and academics.

 

Half of your examples I know very little about - if you could give me their countries and populations - if possible.

you cite saudia arabia - i don't disagree with you on this. i think the royal family is in deep pooh - the only problem is that those that might succeed him are even worse than he.

Pakistan - i can tell you from my partner who has lots of family there and was just there a month ago.... it is changing dramatically for the better. lots of free press - newspapers, cell phones, internet access -- lots of cars and a rapidly growing middle class -- becoming very "Americanized" - lots of jobs, lots of hope for a better tomorrow. So there I will respectfully disagree with you. i think the change towards democracy is real and is progressing nicely.

Our own State Department is often in a world of itself.

Unfortunately, the world is a real place and you have to make tough decisions. you may not always like the current reality but it is the reality. altruism is nice, but usually a cortical processing thing rather than a true option. as long as our LONG TERM goal is spreading the freedoms we enjoy here to others - that is fine by me. The SHORT term options and actions we take have to be tempered by the current reality of the situation.

Full transparacies would be nice - but often unatainable if not dangerous to us and our allies. so the all or none option - that is one i can not agree with you on -- to many us's. As long as we move the masses towards democracy, i am a ok.

 

Again, thank you Jared2. The "inconsistencies" are many, the follow-ups are few. Why is this NOT being talked about EVERY SINGLE night? Is our media that brain-washed? Scared? There is ALOT that is NOT being aired for the public to debate. Why? Becuase it's easier to believe the lies.
I guess the easiet way out is human nature, but isn't it curious that ALL of the facts surrounding 9/11 have been buried? So many questions and the 'commission' just sent the material away and said the obvious, not even WANTING to know the truth. Really, really bad democracy if u ask me.

And again, what do we do next to get this on the front page? It's all there...

 

Simply saying that you're highly respected does not necessarily make it true. And I know from experience that some "highly respected" people are crackpots. Aside from that, looking at the list of scholars, many of them are in the fields of philosophy, psychology, economics, political science, theater (!), education, humanities, classics, etc. All very respectable fields, but none of them are qualified to make judgements about the structural stability of sky scrapers. In addition, many of the people that are in more relevant fields are not affiliated with any university; that doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't qualified, but, on the other hand, the guy standing down on the street corner is free to call himself a physicist or a structural engineer, but I doubt Caltech is going to hire him.

It just seems that very outlandish claims seem to get a great following. To some extent, this makes sense; these theories are sexy and exciting and involve things that "they" don't want you to know. I'm sure there are things that "they" don't want us to know, but lacking any clear, objective evidence or, maybe as important, a motivation for someone to do this, I'll stick with the simpilist, most obvious explanation.

 

Motivation? Have you read PNAC's website?

 

I think we all want the war in Iraq to end.

The question is, how and when?

It's a war, not an episode of "Survivor". We can't just flip a switch and leave.

Remember those photos from the end of the war in Vietnam? The US helicopters ferrying terrified civilian allies from roof tops, and those we turned away? Or the arms and dogs we also abandoned in our head-long retreat out of Saigon?

Also remember the "democratization" of Japan. That took seven years of occupation, even though we were dealing with a totally defeated and subjugated population. To this day, we continue to maintain bases (~90) and keep troops (~52,000) in Japan and Okinawa.

If we abruptly leave, as in Vietnam, then we should not be surprised if the weak Iraqi government swiftly falls. I don't think I can sleep well with the continuing suffering of the people of a destroyed and splintered Iraq on my conscience.

I expect the US will prop up the Kurds in the north. After all, that's where the majority of the sweet crude is located.