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Environmental News

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Oct 22, 2015.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    are we in the right thread bob? :coffee:
     
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I am now.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    'american airlines exec gerard arpey was about to place an order for hundreds of fuel efficient planes from airbus, when he decided to call boeings ceo james mcnerney and give him one last shot at the business.'
     
  4. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    This seems a bit exaggerated. From wikipedia:

    "The new 737 series was launched on August 30, 2011. It performed its first flight on January 29, 2016. The new series gained FAA certification on March 8, 2017.The first delivery was a MAX 8 on May 6, 2017, to Malindo Air, which placed the aircraft into service on May 22, 2017."
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    but it's wiki...:rolleyes:
     
  6. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    There are wiki passages that link to media reports, and others that link to sturdier stuff. It's what's behind wiki that matters.
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Speaking of wiki, a full copy is looping towards moon on Isreal's lander. It's already out of date. Shrug.
     
  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    kinda like toyota gps maps
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    boeing tentatively announces software fix. erm, i think i'll drive :whistle:
     
  11. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    When (I do not say if) MAXes fly again, passengers will be very interested in knowing whether or not they are on one. They may pay more attention to pre-flight safety briefing, and perhaps even keep seat belts loosely fastened while they are seated. Minor things, but with some real positive value.

    ==
    MCAS software update has been vaguely described to diminish pitch-down trim amount and recurrence. It may be fully inhibited if AoA sensors disagree (latter point uncertain). This sounds good, except in a rare situation where thrust pushes nose too high and pilots are slow to respond. That possibility motivated MCAS in the first place.

    If any MAX flight with MCAS lite has an unrecoverable stall, ever, I suppose that will doom the design.
     
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    oy vey, do we have to wait for a disaster? i do realize that not getting these planes in the air is an economic disaster.:rolleyes:
     
  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Boeing fully embraced idea that a slightly aero-unstable design could be reined in by auto trim. I honestly don't know if this is unique for commercial jets. If Airbus (that relies much more on automation) also has examples.

    You have already established personal rule: "No MAX for me". That is fine, and it still allows you ~10,000 choices of planes to fly on. If travelers mostly make the same rule, MAX will be cut off at roots and no more craters will be made.

    What I wonder about is if the ~4500 contracted orders can be revised to 'tamer' 737s. Or even Airbuses.

    Aviation-market 'crash' (being dramatic) is an alternative to 80 or 90 tons going the wrong way.
     
    #693 tochatihu, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    boeing paid 14 million, lobbying to be able to make its own rules and testing procedures.

    don't get me wrong, airbus is probably similar.
     
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    For Airbus I know of no exception to rule that flight-critical sensors are in triplicate (or more). Boeing asserted AoA was not flight-critical. Even a (perfect) software revision will leave that matter flapping in the breeze. So to speak.
     
  16. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    They should've just gone with telescopic main landing gear. It's old tech, proven. It would have kept their old tried and true thrust geometry, no need for MCAS. There would have been a weight/cost penalty, but rather minor compared to what has happened.

    I'll be disappointed if it isn't somehow offered as an option.
     
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    That might work. I've no insight into how different Boeing would have to make the MAX be, to have no need for MCAS. I guess that's where you're headed.

    Surely* this would not be Boeings' preferred outcome. Redesign, retooling, and (fer real this time) certification would take time. Would seem to obviate current contract orders, which I've now blathered about repeatedly.

    Airbus could paint smiley faces on all its new A320s

    ==
    Meanwhile GE LEAP (the frisky engines involved here) are doing well in other applications including A320. (They did have some early problems but let's not go there). Hang those big blowers in the right places and you're good to go.

    *No, I won't stop calling you Surely.
     
  18. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I wish I could find the article where I first read about it, but apparently Boeing got as far as design studies and customer talks down that avenue.

    The idea is that the main gear lengthens itself hydraulically during the downward stroke, and shortens itself during the upward retract. Concorde had this feature though I don't know if it first appeared there or another aircraft. A couple of US Navy combat aircraft have utilized this feature as well.

    The A320 has a wider stance to accommodate its longer legs, and its engines are slightly further off centerline to accommodate this without putting the strut in the thrust plume.

    Once the legs are long enough, the engines can be put back to the same location as the NG models- somewhat lower and rearward from where they are on the MAX.

    As it is they've been planning a modified trailing link design for the MAX-10, to shift the rotation point rearward for better departure angle without a tailstrike on that long fuse. It's possible the two features can't be combined properly. I really don't know why they backed down on the telescoping feature, but it's clearly to our peril.

    And that's just one way to handle it. They could have done the AOA disagree lamp as standard. Or change the hazard classification. A new page in the trim checklist. They could have put in another b----ing betty to holler "MCAS ACTIVE!" or a sequence limiter to prevent unchecked serial activations.
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Both sell 'day zero vulnerable' products?

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    "they've been planning a modified trailing link design for the MAX-10" this and other text @698 suggest deep understanding of aero engineering. Must pay attention who I'm talkin' to :)

    "...but it's clearly to our peril"

    To someones'. At least in hindsight. Risking to sound like a Boeing PR rep, MAX may have accumulated ~million flight hours mostly without incident (I was on one :) ). NASA ASRS seems to be only source of info about pilots who won MCAS battles, and those were few

    No one can ignore these two disasters. Although when dust settles, we may decide that first one should have merited a fuller response.

    Point being, these craters are rare. Until it is known how they happened, in great detail, and corrected, they may not become less rare. There lies the broad peril.

    There are hints and scents about faulty A/D conversion of AoA data. MCAS software patches might not overcome those.

    ==
    Lead J may also introduce a Boeing path out. Make 737 MAX only MAX10. I'd add, Boeing offers 10s for 8/9 prices. It would cost them billion$!. Yet current impasse is costing a billion per month. If flyers in general think like Bisco, more billions of loss could otherwise await.

    ==
    I meditate on how all this began. An earlier 737 crashed after an un-replicated sensor gave false (ground-proximity) data and auto-throttled to zero. Pilots fought back but finally lost. As did 17 fatalities. That sIngle-point disaster (in worst possible retelling) was painted over.

    To make 'auto-land' 'work' on earlier 737s, Boeing gave more authority to computers. This seems to have been (at least narrowly) a complete success. Arguably it allowed Boeing to have more confidence that reworking computers plus tail feathers is purely good. No failures there -> nothing needed to be painted over.

    Boeing came to MAX with a full tank of confidence.