1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Environmental News

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Oct 22, 2015.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Patents are not secret. They only protect profits that might be gained from innovation.
     
    fuzzy1 likes this.
  2. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  3. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    The 2009 EPA endangerment finding is far from news. But it may come around again, with Pruitt-led EPA. This is the thing that would need to be successfully disputed in court to undo CO2-based regulations. Cars and coal and perhaps others as well.

    So there is a chance that someone might want to read it. Search for "endangerment_tsd(1)"
    and make the 198-page pdf all yours.

    Mr. Pruitt in his current capacity is already suing EPA about this, but I don't know how that is proceeding.
     
  5. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Very nice writing about Bauhinia and (typical) sterility of hybrid plants:

    BBC - Earth - How a weird hybrid plant ended up on the flag of Hong Kong

    Unless you have local trees of this genus, you may be unfamiliar with those that produce seeds. When seed pod dry they change shape suddenly and seeds go zinging out in all directions. Ballistic expulsion of seeds is not rare, but it is quite a thing to observe in person :eek:

    (that eek face should be wearing eye protection)
     
  6. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Food waste is a large part of global human food budget. Something we’d want to deal with as part of a plan to feeding the anticipated 9.7 billion by 2020. But human food waste is supporting other species now, and they would miss it if it gets gone:


    Birds Are Becoming Totally Dependent On Our Delicious Landfills | The Huffington Post


    Please don’t get all ‘huffy’ and deflective at the source linked. Just read Dr. Gordon’s published work if that suits you better.


    A similar situation is known with coastal release of untreated sewage. The nitrogen and phosphorus becomes algae and then fish and then birds. We get better about sewage treatment and birds don’t like it.


    This is a complicated aspect of externalities.
     
    iplug likes this.
  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    American Geophysical Union Annual Autumn meeting in San Francisco. I know better than to try to interest readers here in presentations made about terrestrial carbon cycling.

    Some may be interested in “Observational Quantification of Water Vapor Radiative Forcing”, by Willis Eschenbach and Anthony Watts. How much can water vapor and its changes influence the infrared balance of atmosphere? This is a great question. Second, authors’ names ought to be familiar to at least a few here. Third, it is a poster that anyone can download.

    I’d be happy to post it here, but as a 1.8 MB pdf, maybe that’s excessive? Advice?

    My summary surely would differ from theirs! Here is mine anyway:

    A CERES satellite dataset (it has a longer name) shows global outgoing long-wave radiation. It shows where absorption happens, and with an increase through time. Quite aside from the rest, this may come as a surprise to some who don’t realize such a thing exists.

    Another dataset describes spatial and temporal variation of atmospheric water vapor. That also is increasing and I have previously linked to other studies showing same.

    What E&W did was regress those two against each other. Reasonable, but it needs a bit of thought. When we consider that ‘A causes B’, we are explicitly excluding other factors. You can guess that the one on my mind is CO2. Anyway, they found a very strong relationship and calculated its slope. From that slope, they could show that (recent) atmospheric energy trapping could have been caused by increased water vapor. From that they conclude that CO2 has no warming effect.

    And that is the problem. Water vapor and CO2 have both increased. Any analysis that starts out by excluding a CO2 effect cannot possibly detect it. I am sure that some interesting discussions occurred at this poster, and I’m so sad to not have witnessed them. Discussions might have included graphical information not presented in the poster, specifically, that the largest temperature increases have been in high-latitude areas where water vapor has not increased. I really have no idea how W&E would respond to that.

    I imagine at least one member here disagrees that there have been water-vapor increases, or long-wave absorption increases. Take those issues up with the authors mentioned above, by all means.

    For me, the problem is as I have stated before. The way to figure out CO2 energy absorption in the atmosphere involves a complicated thing called HITRANS, and from that, the direct effect of CO2 is about 1.5 oC per doubling. It should be similarly possible to determine direct effect of H2O (per any amount of increase). I have simply not seen the latter done done. I offer no excuse for not ‘taking this up’ with Dr. Pierrehumbert, for example. My understanding is that the water vapor effect is (would be) the largest positive feedback, increasing CO2 doubling effect to 3.5 oC in climate models. My second problem with climate models is that while most net trapped energy goes into oceans, they remain a black box. Very dark gray at least.

    Anyway, I commend this item to your attention.
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I appreciate to citation. I guess I will have to take a read. The knee jerk reaction is 'Watt caused the water vapor increase?'

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    I am pretty sure it can be downloaded from the AGU meeting website. But simple enough to get from WUWT? website. If one is philosophically opposed to even clicking on that, search AGU.

    It is 1.85 MB so I could just upload it. Don't care. But I kinda feel like if one wants to read E&W's work, they should get some sort of credit. Like clicking on WUWT.
     
  10. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    2,577
    1,599
    0
    Location:
    Somewhere in Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2013 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    Perhaps we should consider it easier to reduce our population than to try increasing it forever and dealing with its consequences.
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,661
    8,063
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    No way - you youngin's got to fund my Social Security starting in a few more years
    .

    .
     
  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Poster is
    2016 AGU Fall Meeting
    With no direct link to the pdf. So if y'all are afraid to get it from WUWT, plead with me to post it here :)
     
  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    2016 November sea ice extent was notably low at both poles

    Sea Ice Index

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    And I pledge to update those graphs as soon as they return to non-tragedy levels.
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Although Arctic sea ice impacts navigation, both have secondary effects on glacial flows into the sea. So we live in interesting times.

    Bob Wilson
     
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Fukushima reactor 2 has developed much higher radiation levels inside

    Radiation Levels Are Soaring Inside the Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Plant

    Measurements are not very precise, but now they can't send the (planned) robot inside because it would quickly get cooked.

    In summary this cleanup is nowhere near over, and the spike was not anticipated.

    Hundreds of Sieverts/hr is an intensity that you don't really want to think about.
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I hate to say this but I find this problem somewhat fascinating. It begs several questions:
    • What is the distribution of particles?
    • What are the energy distributions?
    • Are there any neutrino detectors that might image the core debris?
    With these radiation levels, it would be fascinating to have plastic sample blocks brought into the area and subsequently analyze the tracks.

    Bob Wilson
     
    RCO likes this.
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    First and second remain unknown. Apparently they are getting approx. flux from video camera 'noise'. (Which sounds vague to me)

    Third - wot the heck? You image with neutrinos? Any idea how hard those buggers are to detect? See ICECUBE at South Pole.
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Link@98 says

    "The researchers think that, for monitoring fission reactions in a radius of 100–500 km, a detector would need a scintillator mass of 10^34 free protons – in the order of a hundred thousand tonnes.

    So, with enough (of the right) mass they can be detected. May we agree that imaging is a whole 'nother thing?
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Agreed on the imaging. It would take a significant radiation shield with a narrow, optical window, and two mirrors. In effect a periscope where the detector is inside a radiation shield. It would be heavy.

    But Mr. Google turned up a bunch of hits including: Radiation Tolerant Cameras: Find Radiation Resistant Camera Solutions by Mirion

    Bob Wilson