EV Mode Cold Weather

Discussion in 'Prime Fuel Economy & EV Range' started by TRHaley, Dec 21, 2017.

  1. Old Bear

    Old Bear Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    423
    664
    19
    Location:
    Boston, Massachusetts USA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    On January 14, 2019, InsideEVs reported:

    GM Says No To Plug-In Hybrids, Yes To Pure Electric

    It’s all-electric for the win, says GM: Mark Reuss, General Motors President, says that there is no backing for plug-in hybrids.

    The company intends to focus all its resources on the all-electric part of the plug-in segment, which excludes the possibility
    of some other models – SUV or pickup – with Voltec drivetrain, for which many hoped after the Volt’s demise.

    One has to wonder if GM will license their numerous Voltec-related patents or will just write it all off as the sunk cost of a transitional technology.
     
  2. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    1,919
    1,438
    18
    Location:
    Chicago western burbs
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Temps in Chi-land dipping down to -4 F in a few days and for a spell we'll be single digits for almost a week. Alas, I am just going to be in HV mode one way or another and will just have to suck it up, same as that awful week in December last winter. I can live with that I guess. Only 90 days until Spring.
     
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,106
    4,018
    52
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    It's not that bad. You'll still experience some EV driving if left in EV mode. See:



    It only lasts as long as the warmth of the coolant, but that's still more than HV mode.
     
  4. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    1,919
    1,438
    18
    Location:
    Chicago western burbs
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    ^ Oh yes, but my car and batteries cold-soak outside, and my commute is 1.4 miles if I take the scenic route. HV is expected in those conditions. The irony is that sometimes as I begin to pull into the parking spot at work, it can switch to EV as the coolant becomes warm. EV for a couple seconds is better than none at all.
     
  5. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,133
    344
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    It is great that PHEV's give you the option of 'Dual Fuels'.

    But 'cold-soaked' Li-ion batteries are not in their ideal operating temperature range.
    I realize that in HV mode the pack is used mainly to start the engine and assist when high power is requested and regen braking is always going to work that cold pack.
    (The Volt has a 'No Deal' temp around -20° F. You get a 'Must Plug In' msg to warm the pack with it's superior TMS.)

    This sort of duty is not ideal for a Li-ion battery pack in any sort of vehicle.

    "1.4 miles"? You and the car would have a healthier life if you walked to work!
    Or buy an E Bike or Trike. Just be sure to bring that pack inside with you because,,,,,
     
  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,106
    4,018
    52
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    ...any type of power source.

    In the case of lithium batteries, you take an efficiency hit. More energy than usual is being consumed by the act of transferring it.

    That's fine, since it protects the gas engine. Think about all the vehicles on the road that don't have that advantage.
     
  7. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,133
    344
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Technically there are ideal Temp Ranges for different battery chemistries.
    Li-ion
    Ni-MH
    Lead Acid
    All have a temp range. Li-ion is the most limited and has a range where it should not be operated.

    In temp extremes you want the engine to protect the HV pack. Not the other way around.
    Once an engine gets started it's fine and can move the car without help from a extremely cold-soaked pack.
    Hopefully toyota takes that into account due to the Prime having a simple inadequate TMS for its HV pack.
     
    E-GINO likes this.
  8. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,106
    4,018
    52
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Spreading FUD again. Thankfully, the pattern of attempts to undermine Prime by misleading are getting noticed.

    There is nothing in the lithium chemistry that will be harmed by cold.

    There is only an efficiency penalty, resulting in reduced miles/kWh.
     
  9. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,133
    344
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Do you mean I am attempting to 'undermine' THE prime? "getting noticed"? By whom? You? So dramatic...:whistle:

    Or am I simply stating that all PHEV's and BEV's that are left out in the extreme cold and unplugged should go easy until the pack gets warmed up?
    And some have more capable TMS systems and some have none (The Leaf).

    This subject is easily researchable: Do li-ion batteries have a low temp limit.
    They do.

    I'm certain toyota knows this and limits charge and discharge currents if the pack is really cold.
    At least I hope so. They are late to the Li-ion game, after all....;)
     
    Lightning Racer likes this.
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,106
    4,018
    52
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Like I said, spreading FUD. As for claiming late, that's just rhetoric. No one cares about the pregame except those actually watching it.

    Subsidized sales are warm-ups prior to the actual game starting. Having that generous tax-credit available obscures true demand. We saw that with the way GM exploited theirs, wasting them on conquest sales for Volt rather than establishing something capable of sustained profitable sales.

    The game starts when showroom shoppers get involved. That's after government incentives have ended and early-adopters moved on. It's not rocket science. It's business. When just an ordinary person considers a plug-in purchase the same way 10's of millions of others do each year, that's when you know.
     
  11. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,133
    344
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    John,
    As usual your reply is hard to understand what your point is.

    Toyota is a late player using Li-ion batteries. Fact.

    And, to me, their PHEV attempts so far have been, shall we say, LIMITED. :sneaky:
    The PiP and Prime can not operate as a true EV and they have a simple inadequate TMS.
    They require 10k oil changes regardless how many times that ice cold ICE is asked to wake up and help hustle the car down an entrance ramp or the Defrost button is pressed. Etc, etc....

    The rest of your gibberish is also hard to understand. There NO '10's of millions PHEV's and EV's.(n)
    And I'm fairly certain you took advantage of the Tax Incentive, which is designed to bring the Clean Energy future closer.
    If the Prime were a better PHEV, you, my friend, would have paid $7500 less for you car !!!(y)

    But I'm sure you have a perfect reason why Toyota is not taking advantage of this Tax Incentive.
    Please tell us about Toyota's wisdom in this matter !!:cool:
     
  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,106
    4,018
    52
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    A meaningless opinion used to undermine the content of a discussion thread. Most people would not consider 7 years ago late. The "gibberish" comment is that too. It's you attempting to divert attention away from worldwide annual sales, forcing an "EV market" perspective.

    In short, there is no reason to be concerned about cold weather EV driving. The technology is well proven.
     
  13. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,133
    344
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    > No idea what you are trying to say....:confused:
    >>I totally agree!(y)

    (Although some EV manufacturers have an extreme cold limit for an unplugged in EV.
    But most of us will never see those temps.
    And even then, if you then plug the car in, a proper TMS will warm the pack adequately.)
     
  14. vvillovv

    vvillovv Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2013
    440
    131
    0
    Location:
    NY
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    What burns my brifgtches (britches + bridges) is that no body can figure out the dynamics of market energy and labor,
    without having to use the bottom line formula.
    what is the EV market share today?
    what would happen if all ICE were traded today of EV?
    would anyone care that not many mechanics also have an electricians license. or even think they might need that kinda thing?

    I think what I'm trying to get at here in this post is that we're all late to the party,
    even if we bride ourselves on being early adopters. ymmv
    and usually does, but I claim that that is not completely my fault
     
  15. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,106
    4,018
    52
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Here's more real-world data to debunk the FUD being spread:

    Notice how well the system deals with the complexities of extreme cold.
     
    axle2152 likes this.
  16. axle2152

    axle2152 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    246
    195
    0
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Speculation, there's a lot of it. Some folks claim that the shift over to EV's are coming and coming fast...like 2025 will be the tipping point. Realistically, I think it will take a lot longer, here's why... As more and more EV, buses, trucks, particularly the mass transit goes to electric, hydrogen you'll probably see lower oil prices. Low oil prices means it's cheaper to drive cars so things like the Prius or getting an electric car just won't be as attractive for the masses, of course those of us who love tech and want the coolest stuff will be buying the Tesla's and whatnot. So I think cheap oil is going to keep ICE around longer, certainly would be phased out in states like CA and NY where fuel taxes are higher and will probably get pushed higher and higher because all the tax revenue from gas will go down will less ICE cars on the road...that money which often pays for highways has to come from somewhere. EV owners in my state, NC, have to pay a $120 (-ish) fee every year on their registration renewal because they don't collect the tax money from them because they don't use gas.

    The only thing that will speed up EV adoption is cheap, I mean cheap EV's that can go some distance. I'm taking Kia Rio base model prices. If the cost to make these batteries goes down or if solid state batteries catch on and quick (I wouldn't expect that), then yeah I think a lot of people would buy a $14k car that doesn't use gas and goes 200~ miles on a charge. That sort of stuff is a fair bit away from reality.


    Going a bit off subject but...

    The Prius Prime is really focused all around efficiency, most efficient gas vehicle and one of the most efficient on electric, not very easy for a typical EV to get 4.5-5 miles per kW. To give a comparison, the Chevy Volt is less efficient than the Model S which is a good ton heavier in terms of miles/kW, the Hyundai Ionic plug in has to run the ICE to heat the cabin while in EV mode, the Prime only has to do that if you run defrost or if the outside temp is under 14 F (correct me if I am wrong). What I'm leading up to is that the Prius is only attractive when gas is expensive, efficient does not spell performance and that's what all car people complain about is the 0-60 time of the Prius which is a dumb point in my opinion anyway. There are clearly trade offs between performance and efficiency, you're not going to get 60 MPG if you're hauling nice person all over the place....

    Getting back on topic..

    Suppose the majority of people with an ICE vehicle traded in to get a Model 3 or whatever is on the market. The price of EV's would go up a lot due to the simple fact of supply vs demand and if you have an ICE your car is effectively worthless. Where do PHEV's stand like the Prime? Well, pretty much the same boat as an ICE. Let's be honest a Prius Prime isn't as exciting to drive as a Model 3 or a Model S, simply isn't, if anything, the Prime makes you think about the next EV and if you're like me I sure would mind a Model 3 long range model, forget the performance model, they're plenty fast as it is. The Prime in EV mode has enough torque off the line to just give you a taste of what all the Tesla owners rave about, but definitely lacks punch, it is enough to do the job well and that's all. So I think cars like the Volt, Ionic, Prime would be pretty obsolete by the time EV's are the majority, assuming that happens....

    Again the reality is, this shift to EV will take some time and the longer oil prices stay low, the longer it will take. If gas hits $4-5 a gallon you can bet everyone who called a Prius driver a hippie or complained a "dumb Prius driver" will be driving one soon enough. There's plenty of people who for whatever reason don't like Tesla or don't feel confident on a electric only options, so in one way PHEV cars are a nice bridge between the gap but in the end they'll be just as obsolete as an ICE.

    If you're worried about what your Prime will be worth in 5 years, my suggestion is don't. If you're wanting to be green, wanting to reduce emissions the best thing you can actually do is keep the car you have, drive less, take public transit, bike or walk...or don't do anything. Most of the emissions made from cars are from making them. Plus, unless you have cash on hand, keeping your car means no car payment and cheaper insurance.
     
    benagi and john1701a like this.
  17. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,106
    4,018
    52
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Regular defrost (blower on window & feet setting) won't. The button delivers MAX defrost, which is overkill in most cases, does.


    Watching my recent videos, you'll see the threshold is actually 11°F. Not sure why Toyota doesn't specify that temperature.
     
  18. barbaram

    barbaram Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
    882
    28
    9
    Location:
    Trenton, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
  19. GrandRapidsPrime

    GrandRapidsPrime New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    8
    9
    0
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    How many Prius Prime drivers are there that turn the heater off with cold ambient temperatures to get more range? :)
     
    Blauer Glimmer, walterm and benagi like this.
  20. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,133
    344
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    From the linked article above:
    "EVs, however, are especially sensitive to any accessory drawing power, whether the car's climate control or even headlights, meaning that driving at night, whatever the weather, will hurt range."

    Oh really?
    My ~110 Watts of Headlight power is going to hurt my range? (And even less if the car has LED headlights)

    Shall I do the math to see how many tenths of a mile in range gets sucked up by my headlights/DRL's? :cool:

    And don't forget the hit my dinky audio system sucks up the power.....
     
Loading...