EV Mode Cold Weather

Discussion in 'Prime Fuel Economy & EV Range' started by TRHaley, Dec 21, 2017.

  1. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Wait...
    You bought a PHEV that you don't plug in?
     
  2. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    There are some price and/or HOV privilege reasons for some owners to reasonably justify such a purchase. And maybe other reasons I haven't heard.
     
  3. a_gray_prius

    a_gray_prius Rare Non-Old-Blowhard Priuschat Member

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    With some of Toyota's state discounts and the federal rebate, a Prime can be several thousand dollars cheaper than a standard Prius.

    I really don't understand why Mr. Norton is spending so much time here criticizing PHEV owners when a record number of Americans have switched over to SUVs (to the extent that American manufacturers are completely abandoning their passenger car offerings) and trucks. The sum total of 22mpg Ford F150s sold every 6 months (in America alone) completely eclipses the total number of cars Tesla has ever made.
     
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  4. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    > Amazing!
    Why would anyone buy an ordinary Prius when the Prime can be cheaper and gets better fuel mileage when operating as a Hybrid?
    Toyota should advertise that fact, especially in states where the tax rebates work for it!
    Instead they are paying for Anti-EV Advertising.....:mad: Weird company....(n)

    >>I am not criticizing PHEV's.
    They are near the top of of clean, green (and cheap to operate) vehicles!
    I'm just pointing out that there is a hierarchy of those vehicles.
    BEV
    PHEV
    Hybrid
    Gasser


    Of course at the present, depending on where you live, BEV's can be challenging to take on long distance road trips.

    And I'm also pointing out that the Prime operates as a Limited EV when in that mode.
    Depending on where you live, and how you drive it, that may not be a problem.
    But an owner is still saddled with an Old School Maintenance Schedule. 10k mile oil changes, regardless.
    What's so hard about an 'Oil Life Monitor System'? :whistle:

    That may tie into why PHEV's and BEV's are not appreciated at the Dealership Level.
    Who want's to sell a car that is not scheduled for maintenance until 97.5k miles?
    (Mine gets a Drive Unit Fluid (ATF) change at that time.(y))
     
  5. a_gray_prius

    a_gray_prius Rare Non-Old-Blowhard Priuschat Member

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    Look man, we have a Prime, a regular Prius, and a Model S (nothing about this car is cheap to operate) as well a several sports cars. We literally have one or more of everything on your hierarchy.

    I can understand why some people might not want a prime - it doesn't have a spare tire, a rear wiper, or AWD, and rear cargo space is reduced. Now I don't care about any of that ('cause dat nice person tho), but some people want that stuff.

    I'm just really not understanding all this effort you're going through to point out the superiority of BEVs and the (frankly) marginal improvements in oil savings when tons of people are moving to hugely less efficient vehicles. You're practically preaching to the choir while (to extend the analogy) the church burns down all around you.
     
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  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Oddly, preaching to the choir does have its place. It teaches everyone about goals.

    I was called a "troll" for years due to my pestering of Volt enthusiasts for them to get their priorities straight. Individuals, like our troublemaker here, obsessed with range & power to such an extreme, they lost touch with purpose. It was all about fighting the other plug-in vehicles for superiority. What an embarrassment for those of us really trying to make a difference.

    My mantra was repeating the "too little, too slowly" concern the GM bankruptcy recovery task force stated. They were worried the technology in Volt wouldn't result in the profitable high-volume offering GM was claiming it would become. So when I asked "Who is the market for Volt?" over and over and over again to point out GM wasn't doing anything to spread that technology to vehicles their own loyal customers would actually purchase, I got personally attacked by the "vastly superior" crowd.

    It was brutal, a test of character remaining true to goals. But it paid off. We now see that all the rhetoric against Prius from those Volt enthusiasts really was an effort to satisfy want, rather than to fulfill need. GM was actually the laggard. They rested on their laurels and fell into the innovator's dilemma trap, despite so many warnings. Now Volt production is about to come to an end without any successor. All those tax-credits with the intention of establishing a mainstream vehicle were wasted. So much opportunity was missed... and they enthusiasts now recognize my concern was sincere all along.

    Ironically, this topic of "EV Mode in Cold Weather" is what started all the rhetoric. Precisely 1 year before rollout of gen-1 Volt began, back when little was known about plug-in vehicle performance, I brought up this very topic. Armed with some Nissan Leaf mule testing data, I pointed out how much of an impact to range use of the heater had. Volt enthusiasts immediately got angry, claiming my effort was to undermine the "40 mile" range goal GM had set by making up FUD about electricity use. Now, we all see that couldn't have been further from the true. I was objectively stating a reality.

    Recent rhetoric has turned to the state of panic GM enthusiasts are now dealing with. The abandonment of Volt came with the understanding that Bolt would be the replacement, that GM would aggressively deliver EV choices. It was all based on a press-release from October 2, 2017 stating the following: "In the next 18 months, GM will introduce two new all-electric vehicles based off learnings from the Chevrolet Bolt EV." There are only 6 weeks left of that self-imposed deadline... and we still haven't heard anything from GM.

    That terrible mindset of doing it quickly instead is something we must remind ourselves of and make a concerted effort to avoid. Toyota's approach of staying true to goals and taking the time to do it right is proving their wisdom of understanding the market. They know their audience. They study the entire system, carefully noting impact to every step of the production, delivery, and support process.
     
  7. a_gray_prius

    a_gray_prius Rare Non-Old-Blowhard Priuschat Member

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    Our Prime is probably not super far from you and I'm guessing our two cars experience similar weather. I'm going to leave it outside unplugged a few times when the predicted temperature is colder than 25F and turn it on in the morning as a little experiment to satisfy my own curiosity. Is that cold enough to trigger auto engine start?


    To be clear, I agree that keeping these goals in mind is important. On the other hand - I'd posit that it's a bit of a forest-for-the-trees situation. We are seeing a plateau in US average fuel economy that basically started 5 years ago using available sales-weighted MPG data. I'd argue that while crossover SUV economy has improved, but the number of people switching to them has basically stalled any efficiency gains

    I feel like GM doesn't really want the EV customers since so much focus is placed on near-term financial performance and that is mainly driven by their truck and SUV sales (truck customers especially, who are known for being very loyal to brands).

    I also noticed that the mods did a sneaky edit on my post without the post saying it was mod-edited. Didn't know this was that kind of site. [The more you know meme here]
     
    #87 a_gray_prius, Feb 16, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  8. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    The manual, and my experience says continuous < 14 degrees F will trigger auto HV start. If it was far lower than 14 at night, then even a warmer air temp of 20, a few hours later, might still cause HV due to a warm-up lag of the battery compartment. Needless to say, a polar vortex will definitely deliver HV every time. Hope we don't see one of those again this winter.

    That said, I've started in EV at 12 degrees (reported on the MID) and even hit the rear window defrost button and it still didn't force HV. The traction pack was at full charge, though, but that should have still started in HV at that temp and with defrost on. Then the other day it was 25 for more than 12 hours and it slipped into HV after starting in EV, and with little electric anything on. I did gun the engine once on the drive, which probably tricked the computer into thinking HV was a good idea. The car has its own mind some days.
     
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  9. barbaram

    barbaram Active Member

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    My
    my drive is very short, 2.5 miles normal commute. Unless it’s really cold I just use the seat heat.
     
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Outside temperature alone is not what determines the behavior of when the engine runs.

    Most importantly, the battery-pack must be warm. If you didn't have it plugged in and the temperature within is below freezing, the engine will start regardless of degrees outside the car.

    The initial trigger is 11°F for outside temperature, with a warm battery-pack (above freezing). That's very easy to confirm if you have an ODB-II reader with aftermarket software (like "Hybrid Assistant" for Android).

    Following engine warm-up, that threshold changes to 14°F or when coolant drops below the threshold you set, which is controlled by the cabin-heater temperature setting. That threshold for the coolant will drop too, as the vehicle warms up.

    Knowing all those factors at play and having a means to monitor them, it's easy to understand the car's mind.
     
  11. vvillovv

    vvillovv Active Member

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    I thank you again for the videos, hints and perseverance. Many suggestions already acquired just using available gauges.

    Two years ago I took the prime on several 1800 mile trips. each trip started in HV mode, but after the first two or three stops of each trip EV mode was not switched out of and most if not all EV range was used up before HV mode was switched on again. The pack never recovered the loss and I had not discovered charge mode yet. Net mpg for the trips was low to mid 50's.

    Last year I was able to stay in HV mode for the entire trip and watched the pack level fluctuate somewhere within the top 20 percent of the EV battery range staying at full charge most of the trip. The mpg for the first 850 mile leg was low 70's and the return to the frozen north was in the 60's. While traffic and patience was a bit more unforgiving on the return trip, I didn't pay as close attention to mpg and was just glad to get back in one piece.

    In regard to understanding the prime, it's not easy unless you drive one. Specs are one thing and results from any ones personal driving style and environment are another. Other driver(s) of the same prime can easily add misinterpretations.
     
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