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EV supply is coming. Will demand catch up?

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by pilotgrrl, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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  2. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Lot's 'O' drama .... the notion of burning through cash -
    Reminds me of the same claim about Gen II Prius over a dozen years ago. As though you bring new tech on line w/out spending a tone of dough is some kind of norm. Then there's my favorite ... Fiat saying they loose $20K per car. They forget to mention how many CARB credits their 500e produces so that their CAFE rating doesn't dive even farther down into the toilet - from selling guzzlers like their Hellcat Charger and the like. Oh well, guess it makes for good headlines in someone's universe.
    .
     
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  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    they won't make more cars than demand requires, it's the nature of the beast. hype is good though.
     
  4. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    They won't make more cars than demand - unless you are Bob Lutz's pre-bankruptcy GM ..... lest we forget the Hummer ... America's symbol for gluttonous excessive inefficiency. In that case, you just keep building them & building them until every train station overflow parking, every shopping malls' backlot & side street is filled with them -

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The 2007 economic collapse gave people a moment of sanity - but not much long-term memory ...
    Don't worry about the products a manufacturer can't give away, let's focus on an electric car with the 400,000 member / thousand dollar deposit wait list. Oh the irony

    .
     
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  5. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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    Nothin' dumber than a Hummer!

    Regardless, the drive is on due to China's mandate. Will lack of incentives batter the market in the US? Will there be more synergy if manufacturers team up to produce batteries and improve technology? It may be a long march...

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  6. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    The problem with the China mandate is that it doesn't include hybrids. I still think a hybrid has its place in reducing fuel consumption. Sure it's not the holy grail of pure EV but at least hybrids now have achieved (at least for Toyota) price parity equal to a powertrain upgrade. It took Toyota slightly over 10 years to bring the price down (Gen 3 Prius) and then a further 5 to achieve price parity. If we apply the same to EVs, that would put it at 2022 (assuming 2012 for the Tesla Model S) for price reduction and 2027 for price parity (in line with some estimates of 2030-2040 for the breaking point). Of course one could argue and use the Tesla Roadster at 2007 and 2017's Model 3 as the price reduction (almost price parity if you think about it since $50k isn't out of line for a performance entry-level luxury car such as the 340i, IS350, or A4/S4).

    Anyway, I think hybrids will allow a quicker reduction in pollution and fuel consumption since the price is more appealing to consumers and it can be applied to larger vehicles and it makes the transition easier. (You want to make things as easy as possible for the mainstream consumer).
     
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  7. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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    Actually, according to this article from Deutsche Welle (China sets new deadline for electric car quota | Business | DW | 28.09.2017), China has revised their plan: "Car companies with annual sales of more than 30,000 vehicles would have to meet a quota of 10 percent being New Energy Vehicles (NEV's), meaning all-electric battery vehicles or plug-in hybrids, it said in a statement. That level would rise to 12 percent of sales in 2020, the ministry added, and automakers which weren't able to meet the quota would have to buy credits."
     
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  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Quota % ev sales - Ah-La U.S. - type CARB procedures that we have here ... & still - our US auto industry fights (via big $$ lobbies) tooth & nail, each time new deadlines approach. Oh the irony - taking the lead.
    might that also mean a sort-of price parity for the Volt is only ~ 2yrs out too ?
    .
     
    #8 hill, Oct 3, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  9. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Thanks! Ok so they've backed off a little to "only" include 10-12%. That's essentially what we have in Quebec (and similar but not identical to CA) where there are credits that need to be met (rather than a % of sales) and if you fail to meet it, you'll be fined or have to buy credits from a manufacturer that has excess.

    Hopefully! There was a decent drop in MSRP both Gen 2 Prius PHV and Volt.
     
  10. Moving Right Along

    Moving Right Along Senior Member

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    From what I read, manufacturers get multiple credits for each electric sold. So the real rate is more like 2-5% of the fleet for each manufacturer needs to be electric to hit the 10% credits goal.

    In answer to the thread question, absolutely demand will catch up. In the audio companion to that article, one of the interviewees said the only thing stopping him from getting an electric car is the charging network. When he found out he could charge on his route, he seemed enthusiastic about getting an EV.
     
  11. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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    My problem is a little different. I'd need to drop an extension cable out of the bedroom window.

    The downstairs neighbor & the complex office would probably have some less than encouraging things to say about that.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  12. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    there's different ways to skin the cat. Over the decades, I've moved closer to work to ride a bicycle to work, or found a van or carpool - or moved to a roommate type home (garage/extension cord) ... but yea, some day even regular apartments will most likely have power for cars sitting outdoors all night. Infrastructure.
    8 or 9 decades ago people said "why should I buy a car when there are so few gas stations".
    .
     
    #12 hill, Oct 4, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  13. GT4Prius

    GT4Prius Active Member

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    Re Fiat, this might be of interest:
    Fiat CEO Acts Dumb, Still Hates EVs, Says Not To Buy Fiat 500e | CleanTechnica


    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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  14. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Depending on how EV friendly your city or county is, new apartments/condos/townhouses may be required to install charging stations (especially in big cities since EVs are best for urban environments and that's also where you find a higher concentration of multi-family dwellings. e.g. Toronto)
     
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  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Pardon my ignorance but I thought Canada led in block heaters. I would have thought such outlets were fairly common near car parking spots. Did I get it wrong?

    Bob Wilson
     
  16. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Yup. Not all of Canada is in the arctic :p.


    Recall that Toronto is south of Portland, OR and roughly the same latitude as Portland, ME. Approximately 50% of the population of Canada is in southern Ontario plus along the St. Lawrence River towards Montréal and Québec City so not too cold (-10°C and I guess occasionally -20°C but definitely not the -40 that the prairies see)

    Block heater outlets are more of a prairie thing and only a handful of outdoor (gravel or paved) parking lots have power outlets.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    A hotel lot in Ithaca, NY had block heater outlets on the lamp posts.
     
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Back to the OP's topic of supply vs demand, my point was the Hummer glut was mostly the manufacturer's fault .... if manufacturers don't match up supply w/ demand you're stuck with a huge inventory that needs to get sold for maybe just a tad above ½price. Meanwhile Tesla's 3rd quarter was a record-setter this year. They don't just keep spitting them out - unless people are putting on a deposit to buy.
    Then there's desirability & cost issues. Bob just posted sales results and part of the sales data indicates what features most people are looking for - or don't want. On the top of the, "I hate it" features seems to be micro car size & puny range. The more people it holds & farther it goes, the more buyers seem to like it.
    .
     
    #18 hill, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    that's what makes phev's so attractive.
     
  20. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

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    Yes, but only in the short term. Once charging infrastructure for improves that aren't Teslas, then the PHEV market is screwed, too. Fills a good niche right now, but long term there is no point in carrying around 2 very heavy things that only get used one at a time.