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Evolution, Darwin, Lamarck

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    A long reading task here makes a good point that there is more to Lamarck than being wrong about wheat )or agriculture in general). Organism performance and therefore evolution are profoundly affected by environmental factors.

    At all levels. A personal favorite minor example is scarring. I have a scar on my hand from injury 50+ years ago. Skin cells are completely replaced every few weeks, so there have been maybe 1000 cell cycles. Scar is still there because genetically identical cells grow differently in that neighborhood.

    On epigenetics: we need both Darwin’s and Lamarck’s theories | Aeon Essays
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i also have a scar from about 50 years a go. it has worn smooth with time though. tragic bicycle accident, after which i cried for hours. the emotional scars are still there as well.:cool:
     
  3. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Send picture of bicycle :)

    There is some nice stuff at Aeon website, much being accessible only where internet videos flow freely.
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it still brings me to the verge of tears, just thinking about it.:unsure:
     
  5. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Let it out. This is your emotional support group. How could a better understanding of forces shaping Life on Earth possibly compare?

    +++
    Obvious shortcoming to (narrow) Lamarck is that offspring do not possess our physical scars.
     
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    maybe so, but to some extent, they do get enough of our dna for all kinds of scarring.
     
  7. RobH

    RobH Senior Member

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    Neither Darwin nor Lamarck seem to address random variation that has neutral adaptive action. And there seems to be a lot of that going on. Perhaps adaptive change is simply survival of one of the random changes that turns out to be important.

    With regard to scar tissue, proteolytic enzymes can prevent, and even reverse scar tissue. Children have a much better supply than older people, and thus don't scar as badly for the same injury. For more than you ever wanted to know about proteolytic/systemic enzymes, search for "dr wong enzymes". He used to push Vitalzyme, but has his own brand now. Friend of mine says to save some money and just use straight serrapeptidase. My comment is that the impact is slow (like months) and cumulative (take lots).
     
  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    random variation/neutral adaptive action@7. I disagree on behalf of Darwin. He recognized this as the rich source. He thought it only 'acted' through next-generation reproductive success.

    In rough, indefensible terms, Darwin was 10% crap and Lamarck 90%. But we'd not do well to dismiss either of them. Biology is complicated.

    For proteolytics, that's all for you so run with it.
     
  9. RobH

    RobH Senior Member

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    About 15 years ago I was on a tour of the Galapagos. Every day it was pointed out the observations that Darwin made some 150+ years ago.

    The researchers at the Charles Darwin Research Station have continued his work, finding many more examples of what came to be know as evolution. An example that sticks with me was a bird species that changes the length of its beak each year. This particular bird (hummingbird, finch?) drinks the nectar of a specific flower. But depending on the weather, the flower changes in size from year to year. A beak designed for last year's flower size frequently is less than optimal for this year's flower size. Apparently birds are born with a range of beak lengths. Those with an optimal length for the current flowers flourish, those too long do poorly, and those too short don't survive. Thus an observable level of evolution occurs over a period of one year.

    The majority of the offspring of this particular bird develop beaks the same length as their parents. Which is a disaster for these birds when the weather has changed from the previous year. But I guess you could say that part of the bird's evolutionary adaption is to produce a range of beak lengths, some of which will be appropriate each year. Enough random variation from the norm allows the species to continue even when the central evolutionary direction fails.
     
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    First, I wish I was old enough to compare 50 year old scars. I'm sure there are some medical treatments to remove ;-) I'm not sure what the scaring has to do with evolution, other than humans have not evolved to the point where our repair facilities can do the job without scaring without some outside the body medical help.

    I've got to say, from my fairly modern genetics from 10 years ago, that I am still puzzled by some of the claims.

    Both Lamarck and Darwin thought of evolution, versus the church that still was on some kind of thought police on animals and man being this way from when god created them.

    From everything I have learned, and I'm sure some people know much more, traits are not acquired over an organisms lifetime. We know the mechanism for descent through modification, it is the genes, mutation, and passing on these genes through both surviving long enough to have viable offspring, and talent in sexual selection so that offspring are had. Part of what we know about genes today, is that a mutation may change the species in a single generation, and that environmental factors can change gene expression. A creature does not change traits based on the environment, unless that other trait was already in its parents genetic code, or it was extremely lucky in being born with a mutation that caused that genetic change just at the right time for the environmental change.
     
  11. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I appreciate these thoughtful responses. But this is PriusChat and we can only run this forward with ideas that matter to folks here. I might tell y'all that evolutionary biology is in midst of a muddle - new information and tools are still adding to that.

    Hot results in publications run towards 'the narrow' while Broad lacks synthesis. Maybe it is not our trail here or our trial.
     
  12. RobH

    RobH Senior Member

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    The Bio Viva company is developing genetic treatments that alter a person's current genome.

    The CEO of Bio Viva, Liz Parish, calls herself "patient zero" in a test of a genetic treatment that triggers additional production of telomerase. As best I understand it, an extra gene is attached to a virus, and the result is administered to a person. The extra telomerase results in telomeres that are longer than they would be without the treatment.

    The potential result of full telomere length is the lack of aging, as seen in immortal animals such a lobsters. Lobsters do not age - they get eaten and otherwise killed off, but not by any aging process that has been identified. Liz Parish also received a treatment aimed at reducing sarcopenia, the loss of strength with age.

    I look forward to an update on her condition at Raadfest this August.
     
  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    There may be animals that do not 'grow old' and if so, here on earth, it makes sense to look for them in oceans.

    That said, it might make sense to closely examine an assertion such as '"lobsters do not age". A few species (that we eat) can be maintained in culture. One might push them towards aging with higher temperatures - I have little else to offer, besides long waiting.

    Telomere length is a sensible metric, but not the only one. Now we know a lot about human aging in terms of nuclear and mitochondrial 'defects'. So, a neutral study might be very broad and attempt to 'damage' lobsters in those ways, and look at repair. Repair is what ultra-old humans would need because damage is inevitable.

    Cited above are efforts to use viral insertion (which certainly works) to move some lobster gene(s) into humans. While applauding this, it ain't go nna happen to me. Too much remains to be learned about lobsters themselves, and too much more about moving lobster genes into mammals. Some other mammals first; there are good reasons why we imprison them in cages.

    Meanwhile companies appear to exist that will trade your money for expectation. Totally OK with that, so long as it's your money not mine.