evolution vs creation vs Intelligent Design

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hybridTHEvibe @ Apr 24 2006, 03:43 AM) [snapback]244193[/snapback]</div>

Did I miss something?... was I insulted?... most of what is thrown my way is warranted, but that doesn't make me wrong. "basic" religious beliefs to me only mean they are close to the original before perversion came in.

And being fascist?.. well I like to see it more as passionate.....
When it comes to God.. its yea and amen or no... the middle of the road does not cut it.... God said he will spew out the lukewarm and would rather you be hot of cold, but the lukewarm gives the appearance of Good, but may not be underneath.

I express myself openly and honestly.. I'm not perfect.. only striving...... I miss it alot, but I hit it too.

If your going to believe in something about God.. do it with all your heart, soul and mind, otherwise don't bother.
Furthur levels of revelation sometimes reveals your preconceptions need to be realigned... not because the original changed, but our perception of it.

When you boil it all down.. its about a relationship that surmatches anything that could be contrived on earth.
The beauty of it is that He is perfect, but we are not.....

I never claim to be perfect..... and when I show my imperfectness, I realize it jeapardizes peoples perception of God if they think I "represent" God.... but God has always used imperfect vessels to do his bidding.

He has always said.. its Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit. Its all about God... not our flesh..
Having God in your life does not perfect your flesh, but gives power to crucify it.

If you want to throw stones at me.. thats ok.. I deserve them.. but beware for yourself.

 

Oh yeah, and change your avatar, it's HIGHLY offensive!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Apr 23 2006, 07:57 AM) [snapback]243940[/snapback]</div>

How do you know thats what it is?... How do you know its not a conspiracy to make you believe something thats not true?

My point is that many go out of their way to not believe the obvious "The existence of God" and will easier believe other things that are much more unbelivable.

As far as the earth being flat.. perfect reveletion has never been given due to our lack of ability to see perfectly into the spirit realm.
(1 Cor 13:9 KJV) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(1 Cor 13:10 KJV) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(1 Cor 13:11 KJV) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(1 Cor 13:12 KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

While in this flesh form, we don't see perfectly. When the writer talked about the 4 corners of the earth.. that was the present knowledge of the day.. those were not words straight from the mind of God.

(1 Cor 7:6 KJV) But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

Even when hearing a preacher of anyone for that matter.. there are times when the power of God is strong and a high percentage of what he speaks are the oracles of God, then other times.. they are just mere men.

The books of the bible that were thrown out, were those that were estimated that a high percentage of what was said was NOT of God, but words of men..... not evil men...... maybe even men who were genuine, but it was estimated that there was too much "mixture" to allow as being a holy oracle of God.

Only those who have a "love" for the truth can see the difference. The truth is obvious as it sets you free... it does not entangle and condemn you... but beware, there is a difference in condemnation and conviction.

God convicts to make men aware of thier wrong and draws them to himself with bands of love... and that act may even be painful as with Paul when he was struck with blindness to get his attention, but nevertheless its designed to draw to God... Condemnation is designed to drive "away" from God.

Most people running from God, look for reasons not to believe and so miss the obvious... they will refuse to believe that fat meat is greasy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 25 2006, 12:17 AM) [snapback]244726[/snapback]</div>

Most people hiding behind God look only to believe, and not to reason. And so miss the obvious...


Moon is round. Sun is round. Chances are pretty good Earth is round, too. Pie are squared.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Apr 24 2006, 10:49 PM) [snapback]244741[/snapback]</div>

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, says Jehovah;

Isa 40:21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 It is He who sits on the circle of the earth,

Pro 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle upon the face of the deep;

The circle on the face of the waters is one of the proofs that the Greeks used for a spherical earth.

Romans drew the earth as a flat disk with oceans around it. So the fact that a shadow covered the moon or the other planets or moons were circles did not discount a flat earth.

Evolutionists often falsely accuse creationists of believing in a flat Earth. But neither history nor modern scholarship supports the claim that Christians ever widely believed that the Earth was flat. And the Bible doesn't teach it.


Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Apr 25 2006, 03:20 AM) [snapback]244767[/snapback]</div>

That's good to hear, Wildkow. Thank you. Hopefully Windstrings will hear this too, and give up on his conspiracy theory.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Apr 25 2006, 12:54 AM) [snapback]244708[/snapback]</div>

another "quick comment?"

are you serious? so you're saying you're at liberty to make statements without backing them up, while we scientists are responsible for coming up with evidence and proving things wrong that are clear as day? wow, you must be inherently better people then...

i have two words that show evolution happens: molecular biology. and biochemistry is also great evidence.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Apr 24 2006, 10:49 PM) [snapback]244741[/snapback]</div>

Good Point!..now your getting it!

God is the best thing to hide behind!

the spirit realm is more tangible than the physical. If you believe your circumstances over the word of God, you miss out on the Word becoming manifest.

Everything you see in the physical was first concieved in the spiritual first.

You have things backwards....

Faith is the "substance" of things hoped for.... the "evidence"of things not seen!!

Faith is what moves mountains and heals the sick etc....
Faith is the key into the spirit realm to access its power... Its believing in the creator of the substance, rather than the substance itself.

Of course its about the subject of your Faith.... having faith in something powerless doesn't work.

If you can grasp what I am saying, you passed the first step to seeing into the supernatural.

Without Faith, it is impossible to please God..

(Deu 32:20 KJV) And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

(Hab 2:4 KJV) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

(Mat 8:26 KJV) And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
(Mat 8:27 KJV) But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!
God moved according to thier faith... not what they saw...
(Mat 9:29 KJV) Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
(2 Cor 5:7 KJV) (For we walk by faith, not by sight
(James 5:15 KJV) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
and finally:
(Heb 11:6 KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 25 2006, 08:56 AM) [snapback]244858[/snapback]</div>

I evidently didn't make myself clear. I believe evolution is fact. I no longer believe creationism should be taught in the classroom (and haven't for over 25 years), and feel the same way about ID. My days as a Creationist ended when I found the lies in one of their books (hint: look up the original reference they are quoting; it is astounding what they leave out with those ellipses!)

My point is that the scientist has to do all the work for the "quick comments" that come from the Creationist side. I'm not in favor of this, and I'm not advocating that its fair. But it is exactly what happens.

Our question should be: Where is their research? Where are their references? Up until now in this debate (since the early 1900s), all "proof" put forth by the Creationist side is simply a quick and non-scientific presentation of a "problem" with evolutionary theory.

When that point is finished, there's another "quick comment" and the cycle starts all over. But that comment should be met with a statement like "That is well researched and there's a ton of literature answering that very question. Do the research yourself. Now, where is your proof of a designer directing the creation of life?"

Here is the problem: The Creationist is arguing "philosophy" and the evolutionist is arguing "science." Each has a different discipline; you can argue philosophy without references. They are comfortable throwing out the quick comments and getting the "points" in a debate. When you listen or read any of the anti-evolution stuff, you are getting philosophy, not science.

But when you read a scientific journal, you are getting documented findings that, even if controversial and later proven wrong, have at least passed a peer review. And further peer review happens after the article is published. That rigorous examination of the points in the article are a far cry from philosophy.

The debate has to be changed. For a theory like ID to be considered valid, it should have papers published and be subject to peer review. And when a majority (or even a sizeable minority) of scientists accept the theory, then and only then should it be taught as science.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 25 2006, 08:56 AM) [snapback]244858[/snapback]</div>

Galaxee; I think fshagan is saying that it's generally not worth scientists' time to refute point-by-point all the creationists' claims, because the creationists make up nonsense in a moment, while science uses well-researched arguments. I don't think he's saying that it's okay for creationists to make up lies while scientists have to argue reasonably.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Apr 25 2006, 08:25 PM) [snapback]245204[/snapback]</div>

Science seeks to understand and explain fundamental issues such as how and when was the earth formed, how did life evolve to its present state, why do the planets move the way they do, how do the oceans interact with the atmosphere, etc.
Science cannot answer questions such as "why we are here?" Nor can religion take the place of science.
While I am an agnostic, there isn't neccessarily an incompatibility between science (including evolution) and religion. For the point of view of an evolutionist and devout Catholic, I recommend Ken Miller's book "Finding Darwin's God."

That won't happen, because there is just no essence of science in ID. I have no problem with the issue of ID being discussed in schools- I think it could be a provocative subject. It just should not be presented as science

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Apr 25 2006, 08:25 PM) [snapback]245204[/snapback]</div>

ahh, apparently i misunderstood that. my bad. i took it as one quick comment defeats all sorts of documented explanation! needless to say i was a little surprised :lol:

 

Science IS a philosophy: one that requires testing of ideas before they are considered truths.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 25 2006, 05:34 PM) [snapback]245210[/snapback]</div>

Exactly ... my post wasn't clear enough (I hate when that happens!)

Its the reason so much pseudo-science goes unchallenged, from "star babies" to UFOs to claims of the paranormal.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Apr 25 2006, 06:25 PM) [snapback]245235[/snapback]</div>

The term philosophy comes from the Greek word "Φιλοσοφία" (philo-sophia), which means "love of wisdom"
Wisdom mean to know "how" something works

There are 3 levels of revelation,
1. Knowledge = The realization of "fact". The evidence something exists.... "to know"

The next "higher" level of revelation would be:

2. Wisdom = Not only "knowing" the facts or existence, but also realizing "how" the thing operates or interacts.
Those who are specialist or experts in a field, have wisdom about that areaa. Wisdom about life in general... is one who has been around long enough, or is perceptive enough that they have learned and are aware of How things work and how the world goes round.


The next "higher" level of revelation would be:
3. Understanding = Realization of the prior 2 levels, but also having a realization as to "why" things are and work as they do.

Science deals with the most primitive for of revelation.... "to know" The mere witnessing of events and facts in play.
Philosophy deals with the "how"
The next level is given from above as we do not have all the facts and the how to formulate "why".
Those who know "why" about life issues, usually are in contact with higher powers.

"Why" sees the big picture and the whole puzzle at once.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 25 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]245378[/snapback]</div>

Knowledge comes from observation and testing. Science does this, while religion disputes the results of science when they do not fit with its myths.

Wisdom comes from life experience. Both believers and non-believers can be wise or stupid. It has more to do with how much a person has lived and experienced, and that person's mental ability to process those experiences.

Understanding is different for me than for Windstrings, because for me, understanding is essentially the melding of knowledge with wisdom. But in the sense Windstrings uses it, to mean answering questions such as "Why are we here?" this is a question that can never be answered. Religion addresses this question by making up stories. Call them fairy tales, myths, or make-believe, they tell you something about the mental and emotional state of the people who made them up, and they tell you something about the thinking process of the cultures where they thrive, but they tell you nothing about the real world, and they offer no real insight whatsoever into the question itself. Religion cannot answer the question of where we came from, though science is making great strides in that direction. And religion cannot even answer the question of whether or not there is a god. Religion's answer is merely "You must believe." And to enforce its assertions about god (god's existence, characteristics, desires, intentions, etc.) religion can do no better than threaten punishment against non-believers, as well as believers of other religions which offer different answers.

Religion is useless because it offers nothing but empty promises and threats, as well as war and torture upon whoever it does not like. Religion is supposed to teach us how to be better people, but sociology shows us that a person's belief or non-belief does not affect whether he is a good person or a bad one. And by providing excuses and justifications for what you wanted to do already, religion makes it easier for people to do bad things.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 26 2006, 07:22 AM) [snapback]245469[/snapback]</div>

I'm with you on this Daniel,

I don't blame you at all for being skeptical and bitter against religion if this is your only experience.
I too have the same sentiments against the mainstream church in this part of the country.

Its very hard to find a church where the power of God is being demonstrated on a regular basis.

Its one thing to hear of emotional issues and psych issues being healed, but its quite another when you know people who have suffered with physical aliments for years get thier healing, and to even see it happen before your eyes as you hear bones snap and bend back into place.

Some churches hide behind statements like "the emotional and soul healing is a greater miracle.. "which is true", but does not negate the need for the others miracles that are more demonstrative.

The bible teaches that "signs" are for the non-believer..... so where are the signs? Do we not have any non-believers?"

My problem is I've seem the power of God manifested and have felt the power and presence of Him fill the room and my body and spirit and long for that and even "expect" it when I go to church.

Its like coming to the banquet table expecting meat, wine, and fruit and only getting stale cornflakes.


The state of our churches in most areas is pathetic for representing the power of God and demonstrating it in action.

Yes, they talk about the way it was, and the way its gonna be... but never demonstrate it today.
Like the pharasees, they love to study God and become experts on the the ways of God, but may not know him thierself.
The love to talk about God as if they are experts as it gives them power and recognition "as did the pharasees" but wouldn't know him if he walked right in front of them doing miracles.

Yesterday is a distant memory and tommorrow never gets here... the only place we serve God and experience him is in the "today" here and now.

The church is filled with "form and ritual" that means nothing anymore.
When you have to get a book and study to find out why they do what they do every service.. that means the service is dead!!!

What happens in a church service should be fresh and applicable to the needs of the audience at that moment.
That only happens if the service is led by the Holy Spririt instead of a format and agenda.


God literally "prepares" his people for his word before they get there and if the pastor missed the word of God, he is hitting a cold iron instead of the hot one.

On behalf of the church body.. I apologize for thier watered down, weak, sidestepping way of doing things.... like I said "especially in this area the northwest.

So many churches face liberal mentalities here, they are afraid of offending and losing thier audience, so they water down and try to please everyone and so please no one. "including God"

By not being passionate about anything, and saying what they mean and meaning what they say, they have fallen into the last days church description of Ladodicia that is lukewarm and thinks they are rich and has need of nothing and can't see how pathetically depraved they are of the fruits and power of God.

Sorry for your experience.... I really am.... But God is still real and so is his power... you just have to find a crowd that believes and excercises it.

(Rev 3:14 KJV) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
(Rev 3:15 KJV) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
(Rev 3:16 KJV) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
(Rev 3:17 KJV) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

A little more scripture if you can stand it:
I'm pointing out the crowd that "has a form of godliness, but denies the power of it".. they are the ones that ruin non-believers.....
So many people walk in a church to get filled or get something... an answer, and walk away with nothing... this shouldn't be so.

Yes, I blame it on the church...not the unbeliever.

(2 Tim 3:1 KJV) This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
(2 Tim 3:2 KJV) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(2 Tim 3:3 KJV) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
(2 Tim 3:4 KJV) Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
(2 Tim 3:5 KJV) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
(2 Tim 3:6 KJV) For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
(2 Tim 3:7 KJV) Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

Perhaps you're confused about what it is that I believe, because there are two entirely separate things, which do not necessarily go together, and which really have little to do with each other:

1. I believe there is no god. In a nutshell I believe this because I see no evidence for it, and because the god hypothesis does nothing to explain the world or its condition. I do not judge or blame god because there is no god. And I do not judge people or feel animosity toward them based on whether or not they believe in god. There are both good and bad people who believe in god, as there are both good and bad people who do not.

2. I believe that religion is a pernicious influence that promotes uncritical thinking, and that creates animosity between nations and individuals. Religion is an excuse used by many people to justify all sorts of evil actions, racism, and intolerance. Religion was used to justify slavery, and later to justify segregation, and today is the sole argument for denying GLBT's their legitimate civil rights. Many people use it as a justification for war and terrorism. Every army has chaplains to use religion to brainwash soldiers into thinking that it's okay to kill, and that it's okay to kill innocents (providing they do it according to the "rules"). For these and similar reasons I hate the institution of religion.

I know many people who believe in god but who agree with me about religion. And at least one religion, Buddhism, does not have or concern itself with god or gods.

As an aside, it really does appear that money is the official god of the U.S.A., and that the love of money (otherwise known as "the profit motive") is the official state religion. I reject this religion as well, because I do not believe that the profit motive leads to an acceptable social organization. And I certainly do not worship money. I like having it to spend, but when I had only enough for the bare essentials I had no particular interest in getting hold of more. I was as content when I was poor as I am now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 26 2006, 12:47 PM) [snapback]245673[/snapback]</div>

Thats the point.. the evidence is everywhere?

Even Paul believed there was no God... he was not openly fighting "against" God.. only a fool would do that, he really thought there was no God.. He was actively persecuting and killing the saints, yet God still found him and got his attention enough that it totally blew him away and in one moment he was converted "after being humbled".

I appreciate your stance based on what you've seen. But if you open your eyes... there "has" to be a God... even if he lives on the other side of the universe.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 26 2006, 02:38 PM) [snapback]245738[/snapback]</div>

I thought he was Pharisee? Hard to be one of those guys and not believe in God isn't it? :huh:

Wildkow