evolution vs creation vs Intelligent Design

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 12 2006, 01:50 PM) [snapback]238628[/snapback]</div>

Right there you shoot yourself in the foot. "cannot". Why? According to your worldly logic?

I don't understand why you can't break out of this mindset: Why could a supernatural being NOT create a stone so big he could not move it? Who says? According your world and set of "logical rules", or "his"?

You keep applying your worldly logic in some seemingly vain attempt to understand the who, what, and why's... I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's like you're trying to perform "human" surgery on a huge rock placed upon a stretcher on an operating table, and can't understand why it's not bleeding, or why it doesn't have a pulse...

 

So, people are free to believe whatever they want, no matter how illogical?

 

hey if you have that strong of a faith, where you don't question and just accept things as they are... great for you.

i still have to question why people can be dealt such a terrible hand in life and what the whole purpose is of screwing someone up like that. i'm told it's to be used as "an example to others" or "to teach others about something" which is horsesh!+ if you ask me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 11 2006, 06:25 PM) [snapback]238333[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for the explanation. I'm not wise enough to much answer that, but here's what I think: God doesn't always save people from oppressors here on earth, and I don't understand why not. I believe that God knows things I don't, has a plan for it all, and, as it says in the Bible, "Works to the good in all things." But I'll freely admit that it's a mystery to me, and that my belief, there, is purely faith.

(Daniel's yammering away logically against something that's a matter of faith, not logic. Can't argue logic against faith, Daniel. Faith isn't based on rationality, rules, or proof. That doesn't make it foolish, despite your ardentl and not-so-between-the-lines assertion that it is. Not sure what fuels your hate disguised as unflappable logical argumentation, but I'm glad I don't have to deal with it myself.)

But Galaxee, I don't understand why God let the Holocaust happen, and the injustices that have happened and do happen. It's easy for me to sit in a comfortable chair in the safety of my home here in America musing about how it's all a mystery. Would I have faith if I were persecuted and powerless? Heck if I know. That doesn't matter. I believe what I believe, right now. There are people who have no power at all who believe exactly what I believe. They might have more provocative answers than those of us who are here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Apr 12 2006, 02:29 PM) [snapback]238658[/snapback]</div>

absolutely... I'm just trying to show another side of a coin no one has yet brought up. Many people assume, and to a degree, rightfully so, that if this or that happens then this or that is the result for whatever reason. But reason in one world is not necessarily reason is another... This is really what I'm getting at. Applying what you or I know to be a totally logical way of thinking, does not necessarily apply to a supernatural being, that is all.

Many posters keep asking questions, and making statements, based upon OUR world, OUR universe, OUR knowledge, OUR understanding. In OUR world, 1+1=2 (and yes, I realize some harcore mathematicians could argue this point too! :lol: ), how do you know that in "God's World", weird symbol zorkaeth, roughly "added" to sickviglia3 "equates" to something that smells like daniels cat avatar with a weird lump strangely reminiscent of a Vogon penis on its eye... See it???? It would make no real sense to ask questions from OUR point of view.

I mean hey, anyone can believe what they want, if you THINK God somehow MUST abide by certain "logical" rules, such as the clear implication daniel made with this statement: "Just as god cannot create a stone so big that he cannot move it, even he is bound by logic.", fine, but that is presumptious based upon a limited viewpoint. You can, obviously, believe what you want, either way, or no way, or choose not to contemplate "way" in the first place... :lol:


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 12 2006, 07:36 PM) [snapback]238782[/snapback]</div>

Generally, when people start using those arguments, they're full of it, and simply exploiting for their own purposes. I think the more credible clergy members would answer with something like, "The Lord works in ways we cannot understand...have faith young woman, have faith", something amongst those lines...

 

That is what is expected of any religious person (of any religion).

But that is not what I hear... and that is why I don't think they are true believers if their faith is some how better than another [SMUG ALERT?].

Just don't religiously think I am "inferior" in some way because my faith leads me to (the same) God differently. And my believes certainly do not allow me to do so.... If you want to, have a nice day.

So I am open to listening to any of the three "theory" and my God will still be happy with me.... I guess that is why I don't understand why all these "I sue you and you sue me" about in the schools.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 12 2006, 05:25 PM) [snapback]238801[/snapback]</div>

If "god's" "logic" is not of this world, why are the devout so certain they know "god's purpose," "god's plan," and all the tommyrot of religious dogma? "God is mysterious but I know god's mind." Give me a break.

Many are the hypocracies and self-deceits of the devout, but that particular one is intensely irritating.

Besides, every argument the devout advance to prove "god's" existence or intent is an appeal to reason (often and necessarily fallcious reason) but reason nonetheless. Squid's elaborate attempt to paint a "rational" example of an irrational "god" is one calculated syllogism after another.

And the attempt to make religious sewage swallowable by calling it "intelligent design" is very much an appeal to reason and logic.

Face it. We're hard wired for logic. Every sentence we utter is some form of "this follows that."

So when the logic of theism falls apart, unglued by the myriad solvents of its absurdity, resort to illogic only hastens the destruction.

Which, in the eyes of many, would probably be a good thing: logic and reason gave us effective medical science, effective agriculture, even effective civilization. It's given us the internet and photographs of Saturn. Religion and the abandonment of reason gave us the dark ages, the inquisition, and 9/11/2001.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 12 2006, 08:25 PM) [snapback]238801[/snapback]</div>

and while that's the most likely response from someone in the clergy, it is also the least comforting and the most condescending remark someone could make to a person in such a dire situation.

yes, sit around and wait. like some $%(&^ % sitting duck.

if that's what it takes to have faith, i'm going to believe what i see. and what i saw is that i have to look out for myself because noone else- on earth or elsewhere- appeared to be looking out for me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 12 2006, 09:07 PM) [snapback]238837[/snapback]</div>

I'm simply saying, that's all, I'm stepping into the shoes of a far more devout Christian.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 12 2006, 09:15 PM) [snapback]238843[/snapback]</div>

hey, what can I say? i'm not trying to make you feel any more or less comfortable with the concept, nor attempting to illustrate what it might take, I'm trying to argue from a neutral standpoint. I was just saying, differentiating between, people who pull the "you're being used as an example", or anything amongst the lines, are simply exploiting, as opposed to a more "rational"faith based approach. Can it be seen as condenscending, no argument, of course, obviously, to someone with a high enough degree of faith it might actually be more comforting...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Apr 12 2006, 07:08 PM) [snapback]238869[/snapback]</div>

:lol:

I know. People are just too serious when it comes to Religious discussion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 12 2006, 07:25 PM) [snapback]238801[/snapback]</div>

Really? Whatever I want? No logic, proof, or facts required? OK, then, just for the sake of argument, I believe the moon is made of cheese, Earth is flat, and cats are the true rulers of the universe. You have no right to question this, because to do so would infringe upon my freedom of religion. Have I got this concept right?

PS: Yes, 1+1=2 is 'just a theory'

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Apr 12 2006, 09:43 PM) [snapback]238888[/snapback]</div>

It's OK, doc, I'm not really insane. I'm trying to establish whether we do or do not have the right to question someone's faith, and on what basis. (Which is foolhardy, perhaps, but not insane.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Apr 12 2006, 10:43 PM) [snapback]238888[/snapback]</div>

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 12 2006, 01:50 PM) [snapback]238628[/snapback]</div>

OK, I'm not even sure WHY I'm replying to this one, but WHERE do you did this crap up from? God has been torturing animals? Does the SPCA know about this? Really now, its too much, I don't comprehend where you could have reached this conclusion. But, if it makes you feel any better:
1) Genesis makes it clear that, at the time man was put on the earth, all animals were vegetarians, and were at peace with each other, and man. Before someone gets their panties all in a bunch, I can't speak for fossil evidence showing carniverous animals from 1,000,000 years ago, because the Genesis account is only 6,000 years old. However, I believe that you will find that MOST of the fossilized animals you will find, including most dinosaurs, were vegetarians also, including the giant sloth they just found near me.
2) The Bible also makes it clear that once God's rule is restored to the earth, all animals will again be vegetarians, and will be at peace with each other, and with man.

What would you have had God do with all the animals, while this "court case" plays out? Ship them to another planet? Part of man's assignment by God was to be the guardians/caretakers of the animals. So, when they took a path of independance from God, he also had to allow them to prove/disprove that they were capable of properly taking care of their animals, and the planet itself for that matter. I don't think anyone would disagree that man has failed miserably in both regards.

I think I've made it clear that the Hellfire doctrine was the invention of an evil mind (actually Babylonian era), and later fused into church doctrines as a way to scare people/justify burning them at the stake. Can we all agree this is Satanic, not God-like, and leave it alone now? Keep in mind, the word "Hell" doesn't really even exist in the Bible. The original Greek and Hebrew words actually mean "pit", or the common grave of mankind. Its just that some Bible translators didn't think that was bad enough, so a few of the times, instead of pit or grave, they decided to use "hell".

Trying to trivialize the crime does not change the facts. God gave Adam and Eve ONLY ONE prohibition: not to eat from ONE lousy tree! They could go ANYWHERE, do ANYTHING, eat or drink anything they desired, except he reserved that one tree for himself. Is that really too much for a gracious benefactor to ask. In time, if they had proved faithful, he undoubtedly would have allowed them to eat from it. It was simply a test, a way that they could demonstrate their appreciation for all he had done. Their eating was not out of hunger, not out of curiousity, it was a DELIBERATE and WILLFUL rebellion. Instead of God being able to set standards of behavior for them, they CHOSE a course of deciding for themselves "what was good and what was bad". And, unfortunately, in making that choice they were choosing it for all their offspring too. Cursing God for that, calling him a psychopath, or whatever, is not only inappropriate, but it is misguided. The person you should be hating is his chief apposer, the Devil, who lead Adam and Eve into the path of disobedience. He LIED to them, when God had never lied. He told them they would be like God. He told them they wouldn't die if they ate the fruit. All lies, lies, lies. Satan is the one all of us should be angry at, and each one of us has the opportunity to show Satan how much we hate him, and his lies, by choosing to serve God, choosing to educate ourselves as to what's really going on as to religion, choosing not to believe his lies about God. The Bible makes it VERY clear that it is impossible for God to lie. He can not be devious. He cannot be corrupted. None of those things are in his being. Thats' the God I've come to know, and consider to be my best friend. B)

 

Okay. I guess I just get sick and tired of a bunch of know-nothing idiots, so full of their own fairy tales, that they do nothing with their lives but tell me I'm going to hell because I don't believe in their particular fantasy! And to make it worse, there's at least a half a dozen flavors of these idiots, every one of which insists I must believe in their particular flavor of fantasy. They tell me my "human" logic does not apply to their god, and they tell me the followers of the other flavors are deluded dupes of satan, and only their own flavor is the Truth™.

They all reject evidence. They all reject their own senses. They all reject every semblance of reality, and insist that nothing has meaning except the Bible, and then when each of them interprets it differently, each insists that there's only one POSSIBLE interpretation, his own, and everyone who interprets it differently is a follower of satan.

Give me a break! These people belong in a looney bin!

As for "god torturing animals," Virtually all individual animals that have ever walked the earth, swum its waters, or flown in the air above it, have lived their lived tormented by disease and parasites, and most have ended up being torn apart alive and eaten by something bigger. And most have lived long before there were humans. IF THERE WAS A GOD, this would constitute the cruelest of torture. Since there is no god, it is simply the constant struggle for survival.

As for genesis, cripes, man, we're talking about a fairy tale! Or more aptly, we're talking about a rather nice poem that the lunatic fringe has made a fairy tale out of by taking it literally. It makes as much sense to take the Bible literally as it makes to take the poems of Edward Lear literally. Or Alice in Wonderland.

Why do I get angry? I get angry because people actually kill and torture each other for believing some other religion. When I was a kid, Catholic Priests still preached from the pulpit that I was a Christ-killer. And I was born nearly 2,000 years after the guy was killed!!! YOU HEAR ME??? I WASN'T THERE!!! I DIDN'T KILL ANYBODY!!! All over America today thugs assault people they think are gay, after being riled by homophobic christian preachers. When I was younger, those same thugs were beating and murdering African-Americans because of the color of their skin, again, set to it by the same christian preachers.

There is nothing more stupid than blind faith which rejects reason and evidence, and there is nothing more vile or repugnant than the senseless violence that religious nutjobs vent upon people for no other reason than having a different color skin, or a different religious belief, or a different language, or a different sexual orientation.

That's why I'm angry.

 

The mistake people make is taking Christians as a true and full representation of Christ.

We fall *short*. We aren't like Christ. Innumerable zealots have with various intentions tried to pound into people what they think a Christian ought to be, and I'll certainly not argue with you about the examples you cite, Daniel. I'm sure you aren't even picking the worst examples.

Churches are, of themselves, just another group of humans, with all failure potential thereto appertaining.

You angrily lump everyone who believes in God into the same bucket. Not everyone belongs in the same category. It's a lot easier to think that they do, though. I have, at times in my life, thought that people who believe in Christ are crazy, idiotic, etc. It can certainly appear that way. But to think that's the truth is, simply, a large mistake.

What is empty-headed religiousness, to me? A friend of mine from high school who, at my age (34) has I believe eight children. If you ask her about it, she'll tell you, straight-faced, that "the children come because God wishes them to." I have heard her say this. It doesn't help if I rave at her about how God gave us enough *brains* to make latex and to make hormone pills. She's got a bizarre, extremely narrow view of what the Bible teaches. Certainly I have never heard anything that convinced me that to follow Christ is to shut your brain off. Much to the contrary.

I have never held with people who shout at other people on the streets, or tell other people that they'll burn in Hell if they don't believe. That kind of talk has always brought up my hackles, and preachers who wave their arms and shout, "fire and brimstone" style preaching has always been a turn-off for me -- whatever the guy had to say, I'm already not listening.

The greatest, most Christ-like way we can behave is to love one another, like He does us. And in that, so many of us fail so often to truly represent Christ to the world. Myself included.