Extensive Spreadsheet shows PIP / Volt not for us

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by jdonalds, Sep 25, 2014.

  1. jdonalds

    jdonalds Active Member

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    Update. Nobody said this would be easy...

    In my imaginary scenario I installed a 240V charger in our garage which changed things. We'll have about 2.5 hours to recharge the Volt/Prius batteries between trips to school. The faster charger allows the Volt to charge enough to make the second trip to school fully EV. I'm working on the new calculations but this will definitely improve the Volt situation.
     
  2. -Rozi-

    -Rozi- Member

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    I did the same calculations myself back then. Given the bigger spread between fuel and electricity cost here (1.4 €/l = 5.30 €/US gal vs. 0.08 €/kWh) plug-ins were clear winners. (y)
    Volt was ruled out as being too small for my family needs.

    However, I haven't put into my calculation the cost of home charging station I decided to buy after a while (around €700), and two extra cables you need for public charging stations in EU (around €300). :oops: Those costs don't apply to your scenario.
     
  3. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    You're right this isn't easy.
    What about maintenance costs for those 9 years?
    Oil, filters, tires, etc.? Some are fixed costs, some are variable depending on your usage pattern. You may get 2 yrs on an oil change with a Volt.

    You have to get an L2 for home use. I had mine up and running for $295, kit built, easy, they have raised the price a little since then.
     
  4. mindmachine

    mindmachine Member

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    The PIP will charge fully in 2hrs and 20minutes from empty on the included 120 volt EVSE that comes with the car.
     
  5. mindmachine

    mindmachine Member

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    I have had my PIP for 9 months now and I am getting 14.9 miles per charge right now and that has been the max ever for me. In the winter in Ohio the range on EV goes down to around 11.8 miles at the lowest for me. Also a full charge is only 2.4kwh or for me at 12.5 cents per kwh that works out to 2.82kwh with charging losses and .35 cents to charge or at say 13 miles average range at 2.7 cents per mile. So that works out to 4.6 miles per kwh or almost twice the number you used.
     
  6. mmmodem

    mmmodem Taste Tester

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    The error I see is in your purchase prices. The PiP can be purchased close to the same price as a Prius 3. Since you cannot take advantage of the $2500 federal tax credit. There should only be a $2500 price differential. You show a $4500 delta. Is this due to the fact that you are comparing different model years?

    You probably can't use $0.12/kWh for the Volt. You might not even be able to use that number for the PiP unless you have solar or install a second meter. This is because CA has high electricity costs priced in tiers and if you use more than your allotted electricity, you may pay more per kWh. I can tell you that plugging in once a day on my PiP without changing anything to my electricity rates was about $0.33/kWh for me. This meant it cost more to plug in than to fill up with gasoline. After about 6 months of this, I changed to a Time of Use plan which meant if I charged only at night, it would be $0.20/kWh.

    I think the general consensus is that the Volt will save the most money if your trips are between 11 - 70 miles between charges. If you can't take advantage of the $7500 tax credit then you're probably right, that you're not likely to save any money there. The PiP is then more cost efficient for short distances and distances greater than 70 miles. If you can't get the $2500 tax credit the PiP loses here as well. So while I don't agree with your numbers, I agree with your conclusion. I also see that the total cost delta between the Prius 3 and PiP is at $2500. Again, because of high electricity costs, you might not save anything unless you have solar, a separate meter, or use very little electricity.

    There are some other benefits of the PiP you left out:
    1. By plugging in at home, you decrease the number of trips you need to make to the gas station. I cut my trips to the gas station by a half because I get over 700 miles per tank in my usage. It's 5 to 10 minutes savings each trip.
    2. Less wear and tear on the ICE = less maintenance.
    3. Higher resale value of the PiP than a Prius 3

    There is one major drawback:
    1. Several 1000 mile trips is riskier in a PiP than a regular Prius as it does not come with a spare tire. You can buy your own and have it take up valuable trunk space or trust on the goo that Toyota provides in a deserted two lane highway in the middle of the night with no cell phone coverage. I take a spare with me when I drive from SF to San Diego.

    I get between 10 to 20 EV miles per charge. The computer says I average 15 on flat roads in the summer and 12 in the winter. If your goal is to save money, your best bet absolutely would be to drive the 2008 until it dies. If you're concerned about reliability, you can always rent for your 1000 mile trips. I would definitely wait until the 2016 models come out and then reconsider.
     
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  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    check with members pasaman and jumps, they both have used pips for sale at great prices.
     
  8. ny_rob

    ny_rob Senior Member

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    I'm one of the "low achievers" here and averaged around 11 EV mile out of the PIP over the 18 months I owned it. I'd use 11 EV mi as the minimum for the PIP.
    One of the best features of the PIP is that AC usage hardly impacts EV range at all, it's counter intuitive but it's been proven by many here.

    Some other "real world" data for your calculations..
    At 240v L2 charging- for every hour on the charger you get about 10EV mi on the Volt.
    Nobody gets only 2.8 mi/kWh out of the Volt, the average is around 4 mi/kWh... some get closer to 5 mi/kWh. Just as some PIP owners get 16-18 Ev mi out of their PIP's- some Volt drivers regularly get 50+ EV mi out of their Volts. I've gotten 51 EV mi out of my Volt a few times this summer- but my average is 47-49 EV mi lately.
     
  9. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    PiP gives you no EV heat in the winter.
    From my experience with the Volt it's between 25 / 50 mi. EV, winter/summer. Plus you can do a 10 minute "Precondition" with a phone app while plugged in, so you start out with a comfortable car for all 4 seasons.

    It would be interesting to see the spread sheet!
     
  10. CaliforniaBear

    CaliforniaBear Clearwater Blue Metallic

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    If you have an IRA you can take out more than your RMD to raise your tax bill by the amount of the rebate. Saves paying tax on those dollars later.
     
  11. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    You'd be surprised how effective the electric seats are. Heat is quick and right where you need it.
     
  12. CaliforniaBear

    CaliforniaBear Clearwater Blue Metallic

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    Neither car has a spare tire. I carry a spare for out of town trips such as the 1000 mile trips. That would eat up a lot of the poor storage space in the Volt.
     
  13. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    IMHO the OPs result looks pretty reasonable. Without the tax credit, the Volt is expensive. PiPs have been about the same price as a regular liftback, but with no incentives right now and no tax credit, its not too surprising that it doesn't work out financially. Incentives may come back by next spring?

    We do seem to be approaching a point where plugins can make sense from a purely financial perspective in some cases, but for the most part there still has to be some non-financial motives to push the decision over the top.

    From a financial perspective it still seems like what makes the most sense is highly dependent on usage and local electric rates, but in general I'd say it seems to work out that the most cost efficient choices are:

    Lots of short trips (up to 16-18 miles) with opportunity to recharge between: PiP
    Lots of medium trips (17-60 miles): Leaf or Volt
    Regular longer trips (60-120? miles): PiP
    Regular long trips (120+ miles): Prius

    In the OPs case its seems like his long trips are dominating fuel costs.

    EDIT (updated ranges based on chart below)

    Rob
     
    #33 miscrms, Sep 26, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    agree with rob, in most scenario's, regular prius saves more money, especially at current fuel cost. i bought mine for all the advantages of a prius, plus the pure fun of ev driving. just went 14.4 miles to home depot and back, all ev, pretty sweet!;)
     
  15. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    BTW, here is the data behind the claims above. This is calculated from the ANL D3 Database numbers. The costs themselves are optimistic, because they use the UDDS (city) and HWFE (highway) driving cycles, but it should be a fair comparison between vehicles.

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1411756509.088846.jpg
     
    #35 miscrms, Sep 26, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
  16. CaliforniaBear

    CaliforniaBear Clearwater Blue Metallic

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    Don't forget that on some Regular long trips (hills and mountains) the PiP does better due to regeneration. My experience: 52ish mpg on level freeways, 62ish mpg on mountain/hilly freeways and roads.
     
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  17. mrbigh

    mrbigh Prius Absolutum Dominium

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    I agree 100% with the statement; having a warm tushy when needed is a luxury but not in the PiP.
    and with 10KW of PV panels, I'm driving almost with free energy.
     
    #37 mrbigh, Sep 26, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
  18. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Added Prius to graph.

    Agreed CB, if PiP and regular Prius are same price the PiP wins every time. If PiP is more expensive, its hard to make up the difference if your driving is dominated by long trips.

    FWIW I think the PiP/Volt/Leaf/etc are still very much worth it, but that's because I value other non-financial benefits into the equation. This is data is intended to just address the pure financial side of the discussion.
     
  19. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    It's not always about the money. Slap some solar on your roof and drive the PiP.
    It'
     
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  20. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    My commute is 1.5 miles each way to work. If it were a regular prius, the very short trips would be hard on the engine long term. Also mpg would be quite poor because of the start up penalty.

    My calculus is different also because I have solar and charge with off peak rates. Avoiding gasoline was almost as important as the price.

    There are still no other plugins that would allow lower gas consumption for my driving pattern. The Tesla is still the only EV that has range that could work. But I got a PiP and solar for a lot less than a Tesla that many of us dream of having.
     
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